SPEAKER_02 0:43

All right, here I am today with um Sam Panola. Right? And Line Lexington. Is that what this town is called? It's Line Lexington. Yeah. Nobody knows where this is. Yeah, I've never I've never heard of uh heard of Line Lexington. So here I am. Okay. There's a nice little a nice little ride. So Sam that I know of uh is an audio engineer. And also we were just talking a little bit and I found out he's been in bands basically his whole life. And um, so we are here just to uh to to talk to him. So we'll just get started. Uh what what did you do first? Were you playing before you were an engineer, or how how did it all get started?

SPEAKER_04 1:22

I was playing before I was an engineer, and I got very interested in recording when we were when I was very young, because um there was a process of everybody's band going to the local studio to record and then getting a demo that sounded nothing like the way they sounded, because the engineer would try to make them sound a certain way instead of just capturing what they were doing. Right. And it got to be very frustrating. Like they'd take a loud band and try to tone it down or put too much like you know, digital reverb all over everything because it was the late 80s, right? And it just got annoying. And I'm like, there has to be a better way of doing this. Okay. And that just, you know, I started with a four-track and worked my way up from there.

SPEAKER_02 2:07

Okay. Um, so when did you start? So when did they so what was that, like the nineties?

SPEAKER_04 2:13

Uh I I got my first four-track. I was like 17 years old. It was like the summer of 1991, right before I started college. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 2:20

Yeah. I had a four-track in the 90s. I think it was like a Fostex F-O S-T-E-X. Was that a brand? Yeah, it was a Fostex 424. Is that what I had?

SPEAKER_04 2:29

Well, maybe. I mean, maybe they made a real small one. This is the one you could actually record on four channels at the same time. Okay. So it was the bigger of the small four channels.

SPEAKER_02 2:36

It was a bigger one. Yeah. I sold it and I'm I'm I'm I'm upset about that. I wish I still had it all the time. Um all right. So when when did you start? Like, so okay, so you started in the 90s, and then did you start working with a lot of bands? Were you just recording your band?

SPEAKER_04 2:53

I I would record myself. I would record demos for friends' bands. I would cobble together more equipment, pull like we would share equipment, like one person had this, one person had that. We'd put it together just to try to do something better sounding. Um as I went through college, I'd have friends that would work at studios so we could get in there at night. Um I've played bass on countless uh nameless uh demos and singer-songwriter albums of people across Philadelphia, especially in the late 90s, that I'm sure I'll never hear these songs again, but I would do this in trade for studio time. Okay. Like I would I would come in, sit and play on someone's stuff, and in in return, I could bring them up.

SPEAKER_02 3:42

And you never got a copy of them?

SPEAKER_04 3:43

I didn't want a copy of them. It was nothing I was interested in hearing. It was just very like run-of-the-mill, run-of-the-mill kind of stuff. But I would do that in trade for studio time. So the more I could be around people working, and everything was hand over hand, you know, people showing you how to do stuff, showing, oh, I don't know how to do that. It was just very, it was a very open environment because it was it was coming from the side where nobody was making any money. So money wasn't an issue. It was really more about just teaching each other how to do stuff and trying to build up each other's art.

SPEAKER_02 4:15

Yeah. And then now, did you do music for a living, like music stuff, or do you have a a job too? I've always had a day job. Always had a day job. Yeah, yeah. That I think a lot of people do, right? But that's yeah, I don't, and that's where it gets weird because you it yeah, that's a whole conversation in itself because you you you do whatever you have to do. I mean, it's kind of like we were talking about with bands and and and playing cover songs, right? Like as a DJ, I'm open format, and you know, it's because I have to, because I have to work. Right. And so I have to play songs and music that like I might not even care about or want to play. And sometimes that sucks. It's like with the bands, like they, you know, they want to play their original music, and and I so I get I get what they're right.

SPEAKER_04 5:03

But the for me, like, I'm just not a fan of cover bands, and I've never gone that route.

SPEAKER_02 5:09

Um like you yourself, right? And then why don't you like cover bands?

SPEAKER_04 5:13

Because you're I have so much I want to do and I want to say that I don't want to take the time to learn other people's stuff. Also, I don't like watching people just perform other people's material for money. Um I've always been a part of communities where we're all trying to play our own stuff and we're playing in makeshift venues, we're putting on our own shows in warehouses, basements, anywhere we can put a show on. So it has nothing to do with like some bar trying to make money. Right. It was more about like playing the music we want to play to people that want to hear it. Yeah. And that was never a factor. So you didn't like I I was never part of that world. Yeah. And it it's hard to watch sometimes now as I get older. I see my friends sometimes slipping off into that. Well, I'm just gonna play in a cover band, and it's just like, oh, I'm so so I'm so sorry for it. I know it makes me a bad person, but like I just I'm so sorry to hear that. I just I just don't believe in cover bands. I um because it's it's entertainment, it's not art, and I'm I'm way more interested in the art that people are making, not you just repainting someone else's painting.

SPEAKER_02 6:20

Yeah. I I mean that's like when I go to like open jams randomly, which is very random, it's like everybody wants to play other people's songs. And I that was a thing with me, like playing guitar and stuff. I didn't want to learn other people's songs. And so, like, I know some power chords and I know chords and I can noodle around and I can, but yeah, whenever at an open jam, I'm like, all right, well, do you guys can anybody just like jam? Because they're like, oh, we're gonna play this song and this song. I'm like, I don't know, and I don't want to learn. So I kind of understand what you're saying. Like, if I'm at an open jam, I just want us to start playing, and then when that jam, and then you all like and you're just making it up on the spot. I don't want to sure play Leonard Skinner or whatever people do.

SPEAKER_04 7:03

I was gonna say, Can't you see? I don't need there's if there's like one song no one needs to hear played at an open mic night, it it's can't you see?

SPEAKER_02 7:11

Like, can't you see? Yeah. Wait, what song am I thinking of? Am I singing the right song?

SPEAKER_04 7:16

Yeah, the one where the guy's blaming all of his problems on a woman.

SPEAKER_02 7:19

I don't I don't I think I'm singing another song. Uh the shooting star. That's what I'm singing for some reason.

SPEAKER_04 7:25

No, I'm not even gonna attempt to sing it for you. Yeah, I don't. We're not gonna we're not gonna go there.

SPEAKER_02 7:30

So you've been all these years working with a lot of different so you're still in a band.

SPEAKER_04 7:34

Still in a band.

SPEAKER_02 7:35

So you've always played.

SPEAKER_04 7:36

Always played.

SPEAKER_02 7:37

Okay. And then you've been working and with musicians since the 90s, like and and making records.

SPEAKER_04 7:43

Um I got more into I I made a lot of demos for people for a long time and and small releases. It was more when I started working out of this room. I this this is my 20th year here. Okay. So I I put this together in the winter of 2006, like early January. Um and so this is my 20th year. It got to the point where I had one group of friends come in with their new band and they just wanted to record some stuff. And I decided to not treat it like demos. I took my time with it, I made them work hard on it. Their recordings turned around and got them signed, and then a record came out in the US and Europe. And they didn't remix it or anything, they just took what we made here and released it.

SPEAKER_02 8:32

So that was the name of that Green Meteor. Green Meteor. Okay, and when who they get signed by?

SPEAKER_04 8:36

Uh Argonata Records out of Italy. Oh, okay. And it got released all over the place. Um, so that's when things started to move into You're like, oh wait, I can do this. Well, I knew I could do it, but that was the first time like the the work actually turned into more than just like a CDR that somebody was handing out at shows. Right. Uh, and then next thing you know, I'm I'm working with uh this one band where all the music's being recorded in California. I'm recording the vocals here, and then I'm sending the vocals out to this guy, Cameron Webb, who's an engineer that's was uh Motorhead's engineer for like the last 15 years of their career. He's worked with bands like Rise Against and a slew of other uh punk and and pop acts. So I'm I'm recording stuff and collaborating with him and sending my work out to him to be mixed in. Yeah. So it's um in a sense, punk rock and DIY has taken me many places. Yeah. And I've got, you know, um, I've gotten to work with some some pretty big engineers over the years. Like I I spent a week once recording with Steve Albini. Oh wow. And I can say that I learned more in that week.

SPEAKER_02 9:47

Is he the guy that recorded Nirvana and stuff? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 9:50

So I learned more in that week recording with him, not just being there to record, but sitting in the control room with him, like because he was great, never hesitated to answer any of my super nerdy questions. That is so cool. Everything he was doing. There's things I'm still using to this day that I definitely learned when I was in Chicago.

SPEAKER_02 10:08

So, yeah, and so everything you're basically self-taught, like you just were learning as you go.

SPEAKER_04 10:12

I I I had one uh audio production class in college that was super basic, you know, and gave me a little bit of grounding, but it's it's interesting. There's things I learned in that class that I didn't fully understand, like phase until much later, to when I started to hear it on my own recordings. I'm like, oh now this makes sense.

SPEAKER_02 10:31

Or like compression was always like, I mean, I went to school and um you don't it nothing, nothing, nothing makes sense until you're actually doing it.

SPEAKER_03 10:39

Right, right.

SPEAKER_02 10:40

And they'd always say in school, they're like, Compressor, well, you'll when you get when you understand, you'll understand one day. And I'm like, What? And now it's it's very, very simple uh right thing. Right. I don't know why they made it seem so complicated.

SPEAKER_04 10:51

Well, I don't know, or maybe your brain just can't wrap it a wrap around it until you until you get your hands on it and start, you know, basically spinning the knobs and seeing what they do.

SPEAKER_02 11:02

That's why, and I talk about this a lot in in different podcasts, is that this is an industry where that's how it should be done. And and it irritates me so much that they've like, you know, capitalized and made these school programs that are thousands and thousands and thousands of dollars when literally we just need to be sitting with someone that has more experience and learning.

SPEAKER_04 11:21

And that's killing regional sounds because you used to be able to listen to something and go, that was recorded in New York, or that band's from the DC area. That that's that's a West Coast band. That's a that's a Pacific Northwest band. There would be these regional sounds and colors, and now with plugins and everything else, like everything just so the same. And all the all those feels are gone. It's so homogenized that um yeah, what I do here is gonna seem kind of backwards.

SPEAKER_02 11:47

Yeah, well, it's very important what you do here. I just brought a drummer in the other day to get practice with some mics, and unbelievable. Like, I I didn't even do anything. I I just recorded, and he was a great drummer. Um, I just put a little reverb on the snare when I bounced out the tracks, but like we didn't mix or anything, it was just for me to get the recording practice, and it just sounds so good just because of nice microphones, and it's like I'm like such a nerd for that.

SPEAKER_04 12:15

I I can relate, like I I think for me, most of your drums, it's the drummer. If you have a good drummer, oh my god, he's you you have a good drummer, you have a well-tuned drum kit, that's like 90% of the battle. Yeah, and it's 10% microphone placement, and most of it's the the operator and how the kit is tuned. Like that, that's where the sounds come from.

SPEAKER_02 12:39

Yeah, and I yeah, I was just hitting a couple of the compressor outboard. I just haven't heard any of this stuff. Like there, you know, the vocal mic is uh telefunken 251 E Lamb, whatever. It's like $13,000. I was like, what the hell is this? This is crazy. And then I heard it and I was like, oh my god, do I even have to mix? And I and that's how I'm trying to sell it to people because so many people are working out of their homes that like if you do anything, at least record in a place that has nice microphones. And because it'll you you you spend you'll spend double the time like mixing, right? That's how I that's what I'm learning. And I'm like, yeah, you want me to do it out of my home, but I don't want to, number one. And number two, it's gonna take twice the time. So yeah, maybe you're paying double the price at the studio, but it's gonna be half the time. So it's all gonna be the same.

SPEAKER_04 13:25

And and with the way I work, I I still think analog. Yeah. So a lot of times I'm using uh I'm running cubase and I'm using a I use cubease. Yeah, yeah, because I had that years ago in early 2000s. I just never stopped. Yeah. I'm too lazy to I've I've worked in other programs, but I just as long as the records sound good, who cares? I can fly around it because I'm I'm using the computer like a glorified tape machine. Like I try to get it to sound the way I want it to sound before I print it. So that way when I'm going the mix, I'm not really doing anything corrective. Yeah, it's just the it mixing should be easy. It shouldn't be hard. Yeah. Like if I if I've recorded it well, mixing shouldn't be a chore. And then you're you know, the the I know this from video and film production and audio production. There's nothing worse than when someone says, We'll fix it in the mix, we'll fix it in post. Yeah. That's just fix it now. Fix it now, fix it now while it's and then you'll save that time. Right. And then it's just good, it's less processing. Like the less, the least amount of processing I can do on anything I've recorded after I've recorded it, the happier I am. Usually it's a little EQ to mix things together, a little balancing, and that's about it. Like I don't I I record in a fairly like straightforward way. Yeah. And there's no place to hide. It's like I I always say it, it's I'm shooting high-speed black and white film, and I'm not gonna airbrush the photos when I'm done. So you better be comfortable with how you look naked because there's nowhere to hide. Yeah, and I I also know that means I'm not for everyone, but at the same time, like uh I've been able to work with a lot of people and give them sounds that they want. Like, that's uh I'll keep bringing it up. The Shattered Figures record, Mark mixed from Shattered Figures mixed it. I recorded it. He did a beautiful job. He's got great ears, he did a beautiful job mixing it, but I also think that I was able to give him recordings that weren't a lot of work, yeah. And the sounds we we we got together on that like sounds massive. And it was done in this little room. Yeah, and we had no it sounds great. And Dan has a very small drum kit for recording, so it was small drums in a small room, but on the recording it sounds like big drums in a big room.

SPEAKER_02 15:38

Yeah, yeah, no, it sounds great. Yeah, what was uh let's talk about that album a little bit. What was one of your favorite um songs on there? Uh ex-girlfriend. Ex-girlfriend, that's the first song, right? Yeah, um, and how was like what was the process of like tracking all that? What we what did you do?

SPEAKER_04 15:55

For the whole record, we tracked uh the bass direct and the drums live. And Mark would do a scratch track. Okay, and then we'd go back and replace the guitars, and then vocals would come last. And we wound up keeping most of the bass that we recorded because with just with Jeff and the full range of the extended scale basses, we were able just to get really great sound without using amps. And and you could see in the room, I love amps. Yeah, but like if it's not the right sound, like it's just what he wanted. DI was the way to go. So that started to save time. Yeah. Uh and we just did it in a couple of chunks over a couple weekends.

SPEAKER_02 16:30

We would you record like all of the drums and like bass for like for the whole album?

SPEAKER_04 16:35

Or did you do songs and we would they would come in on a weekend and we would do two or three songs at a time. Okay. So we would do the rhythm tracks, then do the guitar overdubs, and when they left and the vocals before they left. So when they left, those songs were done, and then he'd come back in and we'd do it again.

SPEAKER_02 16:51

And like, did you recall like all your settings? Like, did you just basically keep setting up everything the same way, or did you like experiment with different songs?

SPEAKER_04 16:59

I took a lot of pictures, I took a lot of notes. Um I used the same setup, so I I built templates for them, but each time I recorded them, I started fresh. Uh-huh. You know, um, so it wasn't, but it I think we were fairly consistent with that. Because there were times where nobody was in here in between. So like all my settings were just the same. Oh, yeah. I didn't even have to change it.

SPEAKER_02 17:22

Yeah. So um obviously the people whoever's watching this can't see this, but we can later like walk around and show this stuff. So you have this whole rack of outboard gear, and um basically you're using all that and you're going right into the computer. You're saying you're not using a console at all. No, so is there like EQs in there and stuff? Um or is it just compressors, or what is all that stuff?

SPEAKER_04 17:44

A little bit of both. There's there's some channel strips that have the full range. Uh, there's a you know, a number of preamps, a couple of outboard compressors, uh, and then everything else I'm doing it. Most I'm doing in the box. Either I try to get it to sound right in the room before it goes in. I'm not doing a lot of EQing. And even after I get it into the mix, as long as I've recorded it right in the first place, there's not a lot of corrective action going on.

SPEAKER_02 18:10

Yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_04 18:11

So you know a lot of it's reductive, like maybe rolling off some of the lows off the guitars and things like that.

SPEAKER_02 18:16

Yeah. What is something that's very important that you think that you need to tell a band or an artist, like before you come in the studio, make sure these things so everything goes smoother for us?

SPEAKER_04 18:26

It it varies. Uh, I I always like to know that if they're bringing their own drums, they've got fresh heads on them. I'll tell bass players to change their strings um and just know the material. Like if you if you're rehearsed and you come in, it it's not gonna be a lot of time, it's not gonna be a lot it takes. I've recorded vocals so many different ways. It's whatever the singer is most comfortable with. Yeah, like I I had one band in here where the singer she didn't like singing into a microphone mounted to a stand with a screen in front of it, it just wasn't something she was comfortable with. Um, I gave her a 25-foot mic cable. I took an SM58 and I taped up the connection. I gave her headphones and a long headphone extension. We moved everything out of the way because she wanted to move around while she was doing vocals, like she was out of shop. How did these turn out? Turned out great, really. Yeah, yeah. Because there wasn't there wasn't a lot of noise to gate out of it.

SPEAKER_02 19:21

So she was good at keeping the mic placement in the right.

SPEAKER_04 19:24

Very much so. And she was more comfortable singing into it. So we got really good takes. Yeah. But at the same time, we had to move everything out of the way and give her long cables so she could literally move around. Yeah. And if that's what works for the singer, then that's what we're gonna do. Like, I don't, I don't feel locked into any one thing.

SPEAKER_03 19:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 19:42

Like I've got some things, standard things I'll try, but then I'll if it's not working, I'll I'll try something else. Like, I don't feel locked into any one mic. Because sometimes I found, especially with screamy vocals, giving someone a really nice microphone is not the best microphone. One of my best microphones for shouty vocals is an old Radio Shack mic. Okay. That's it's just completely ridiculous. Look, it looks like an old Elvis Presley mic. Okay. And I'll I'll just give that to somebody that's like super shouty and it's got like a narrow bandwidth to it. But when you're doing screamy vocals, they sound amazing and using it handheld. But it's the kind of thing you'd see on a flea market table and go, I don't I don't think I want that.

SPEAKER_02 20:23

Yeah, yeah, but it works for that. That's great. So you capture the sound exactly that you need.

SPEAKER_04 20:29

That's so cool. I'll I'll use anything from you know, from from the the the lone Neumann we have all the way down to that cheap Radio Shack Mike. I'll I'll just whatever sounds good to my ears at that time is what I'm gonna work with.

SPEAKER_02 20:41

Yeah. Um, my one thing, the other question I had asked about to tell people, one of my big things is practice to a metronome. Do you do do you have people record to a metronome?

SPEAKER_04 20:52

Well, here's the thing if the if the band practices to a click, using a click is great. If the drummer practices to a click, it's great. I think there's nothing worse than working with a band, especially if they're a little green, that doesn't practice to a click, and if you put them on a click, it it's horrible. It goes sideways.

SPEAKER_02 21:12

Also, I just don't you but don't you think that you should record to one? Do you feel that you should?

SPEAKER_04 21:17

No. No, no, not at all. I if you practice to one, if you're doing stuff with backing tracks and you need to be together, sure. But I I don't think it's for everyone. I I think music needs to ebb and flow and sway. Like there's always a little give and take in the performance. Like one of my favorite records uh is Funhouse by the Stooges, and it's recorded in this crazy manner, all live, vocals live, vocals are being run through a PA bleeding onto everything. But the energy in that performance beats anything. Like I'd rather have like a great performance than something that was like a hundred percent sterile and technically correct. Yeah. And I know that's not the norm, but. But that's also why my phone doesn't ring a lot. What do you what do you mean? Because I would rather record something that sounds like funhouse than record something that sounds like a shiny pop record. Right. But also I'm not capable of recording a shiny pop record.

SPEAKER_02 22:12

So you're only so well, you don't want to.

SPEAKER_04 22:14

Well, I would try if I was given the opportunity, but at the same time, like that's the the the the bands and people I like to work with are generally, you know, it's loud and guitar oriented.

SPEAKER_03 22:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 22:26

So that's that's just I mean, it's not just comfortable, it's what I like. Yeah. And I do well. I I'm not opposed to trying other things, but um, I don't think I don't think I'll ever get that call.

SPEAKER_02 22:37

Yeah, no, no. Um, yeah, I always I always recommend, I mean, I do, I do like what you're saying because um, you know, let the art be the art. But my thing is, which a lot of people don't even get remixes, but it's like if you do it to a click and it's just an acoustic guitar, then down the road it's gonna be easier for a drummer to do whatever, and if you want a remix of it and blah, blah, blah. But I do understand what you're saying too. If that's how they are and and and they don't have any plans to do any of those things, then and it sounds good, then I guess just let them do it. Right. Like I'm gonna keep, I'm gonna keep that because I've always been really, you know, like, you know, like you gotta play this, and I know you hate it, like and it and it, and it will ruin someone's soul if they're not good at it.

SPEAKER_04 23:22

I feel like there's very few projects I've ever done where I'm actually recording to a grid. Like I don't I don't quantize anything for anybody. I'll fix little mistakes here and there. It's it's I'm not above that. But if something's played badly, I won't chop up the performance and make it good.

SPEAKER_03 23:38

Right.

SPEAKER_04 23:38

I will make you play it again. Yeah, that's why I'm saying I kind of use it. And that's what you that's that's great. I use it like a tape machine. Um, I never use auto-tune or or any kind of plug-in like that. And I realize that keeps me kind of locked in time a certain way.

SPEAKER_01 23:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 23:54

But at the same time, like I think a lot of like, especially like garage rock and punk stuff.

SPEAKER_02 23:59

I mean, that stuff's gonna be that stuff. Yeah, it's good to still keep it's good to keep the old school, like you know, and you need the energy from it.

SPEAKER_04 24:05

And anytime you you you put something on a grid, it just locks it together and it just it doesn't most of the people I'm working with, that won't work for them. Like it just it won't make sense. Yeah, yeah. It's got it's got to growl and snarl and ebb and flow a little, and then I'm happy. Like, yeah, I have this bad habit when someone does a take. I really like. I do this too to my own band, it drives them crazy. Like when we play something and it goes real well, I get the giggles. I literally like get happy and like I'll giggle when we're done. And it's like the worst habit ever. Because I've had bands that don't know me as well, they'll play something and I'll laugh and they'll think I'm laughing at them, but I'm just very happy with what they did. Yeah, my big idiot self is giggle.

SPEAKER_02 24:44

Sound makes you so happy you giggle. Pretty much. Oh my god, I love that. I love that.

SPEAKER_04 24:48

If I'm working with like a louder band they want to lay or guitars, I'll shape the overdub to fit what they've already recorded so I'm not having to EQ it when I get in. It might not sound good.

SPEAKER_02 25:00

Oh, so you at you EQ it on the way in.

SPEAKER_04 25:01

Yeah, yeah. I'll I'll notch out some frequencies, or it might not be the most pleasing sound coming out of the amp on the overdub, but when you hear it in the mix, it's exactly what you want to hear. And all the frequencies that would be taking away or covering something up aren't there. So it's like the piece just slides into place where it needs to be, but I'm doing it on the front end before it even hits.

SPEAKER_02 25:24

How long did it take you to like get that ear and that confidence to make? I guess I mean you started in analog days. So in analog days, you had to be committed, like you had to make commitments. Right. You had to be like, okay, this is what we're doing. Now, obviously, if you take it to the computer, you can forever, which is annoying, your forever options, and then you overdo everything. And so, how long did it take you to like to to to really just be able to be like, okay, I know this is this this double is gonna need this kind of EQ and this kind of EQ, and you felt comfortable, like it was it was a slow progression over time, but but part of it was I've never, much to the chagrin of some other people, I've never had a problem like printing modulation on a sound.

SPEAKER_04 26:07

Like if someone's using chorus, I don't want to put chorus on it after the fact. Like the sound coming out of their amp, if that's what they want, yeah, that's what I record. Yeah, and I'll I'll in a sense, like I'll sometimes force people to make commitments.

SPEAKER_03 26:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 26:20

Like I don't really deal a lot with re-amping where you just record it naked and then try every amp in the room and see how it's sounds. It's like we'll figure that out on the front end and just pick a sound and go.

SPEAKER_02 26:30

Yeah, just pick something.

SPEAKER_04 26:31

Yeah, like I did go through a phase where I became very particular about like very precious about well, it's got to be this fuzz with that guitar and this amp. And then my band uh in 25 went down, I'm sorry, in late 24, went down to Baltimore and we recorded with Jay Robbins at a place called Magpie Cage. And the biggest thing, one of the biggest things I got out of that session was to not be so precious about the little tiny details. Yeah, like if you're playing a guitar and you're running through a great sounding amp, you don't need a lot in the signal chain. And if that's what you're recording as is, just let it go. Like stop being so nitpicky about stuff. And I love the end results we got, but the the biggest I had all these notes I took with me, and then like halfway through the session, I wasn't using the notebook anymore. I'm like, this sounds good the way it is. I'm not gonna interfere.

SPEAKER_02 27:22

And I just stop messing with stuff and it just Yeah, because it's so easy to mess with stuff, but less is more.

SPEAKER_04 27:27

Like if really, if you record it right, you really don't have much to do. You sound like me. I I tell people that all the time. Like drummers when they're playing too busy, I'm like, less is more.

SPEAKER_02 27:36

Yeah, like the tighter it is, but it's hard, it's hard for people. Like we want to we want to go crazy.

SPEAKER_04 27:41

Sure. And the the the the the less stuff in your signal chain, the better. It's why it's why I don't have a mixer out here. I realized I wasn't using the mixer for anything. Like the board has been gone for years because I'm doing everything in the box, and that's fine. I've gotten I had to get used to it. And part of it was economy. Like if I had when tape got real expensive in the late 90s and early 2000s, and tape was hard to get, you could get big tape machines really, really cheap. But working with tape is expensive, and most of the bands I work with can't afford to work on tape, right? So I learned digital recording at the time out of economics because it was just one of those things where like we can't afford to keep working, like a half inch, a half inch tape is now like 150 bucks. No one can afford to work like this.

SPEAKER_02 28:27

And how much time is on a on on that?

SPEAKER_04 28:30

Maybe 20, 25 minutes, depending on the size of the reel. So yeah, that it just the the economics of it um is why I think it's like. Do you like the sound?

SPEAKER_02 28:39

Do you like the sound better tape, or is it depend on the band?

SPEAKER_04 28:43

I think it depends. Like when I recorded at electrical audio, we recorded the whole album on two-inch tape. And obviously, you know, we were work working with Albini.

SPEAKER_02 28:52

So there's half inch and two inch. I haven't talked about tape in a long time.

SPEAKER_04 28:54

What's the difference between it's just it's you're putting more signal down in more space. So we were only like more tracks. Right. Well, we were we had it set up where we only had 16 tracks, okay, but we were using two-inch tape. So more in each track was in a sense bigger. It was more information going in. Okay, so more sound, higher quality.

SPEAKER_03 29:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 29:12

Um, and then the most recent album we did with Jay Robbins down in Baltimore, we did a hybrid. We tracked the basic tracks live, all playing at the same time, amps isolated, all standing in the room with the drums. We, you know, we played the basic tracks live and we recorded the two-inch tape. But then he would dump everything from the two-inch tape down into Pro Tools, and we did all the overdubs and vocals in the computer. So it was kind of a hybrid sound in a sense. And that was your band that you did. Okay. Yeah. So the drums were getting, you know, slammed to tape and sound amazing. And the initial tracks, like my bass tracks, sound great. And then we would take that and then do that because it just became faster. So we would we would do the basic tracking on two-inch tape and then work out a pro tools to fetch it. That's cool. It was a great way of doing it. And also we didn't have to pay for the tape because the cost alone of a two-inch reel, I don't know what it's up to. But like when the last time I had to purchase two-inch reels was in 2011, and those two two-inch reels cost us about $350 for the two reels. Um, so that I I can't imagine what that's now in 2026, what a two-inch reel would cost.

SPEAKER_02 30:25

Yeah. Yeah. So I I guess people are still using tape. Some places.

SPEAKER_04 30:30

I mean, I'm I'm sure that I'm sure there's places out there that are working like that.

SPEAKER_02 30:34

Somewhere out there. Yeah. Records kind of have have are having a little comeback. Sure.

SPEAKER_04 30:39

Sure. Um, it's it's just one of those things where at the end of the day, as long as it sounds good, I I kind of don't care how it's recorded. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because then I get into that argument with people where they're telling me their record sounds better, but I know they recorded the whole thing digitally. So it's an analog representation of a digital file. It's fun, it's great, it's tactile, it feels good. But yeah, uh, you know, I it's another I gotta watch what I say because that's why I don't get invited back to parties.

SPEAKER_02 31:06

So um, do you have any like um what what do you have any nightmare stories? Like any clients in your lifetime that have been a nightmare?

SPEAKER_04 31:16

There there was a band after I I don't advertise anymore. Uh I don't have any kind of web presentation.

SPEAKER_02 31:23

Do you have a name for your studio?

SPEAKER_04 31:24

New Sofa.

SPEAKER_02 31:25

New Sofa, okay.

SPEAKER_04 31:26

You want to know where that comes from? It's so nerdy. Go ahead. Um, growing up, when I was a kid, my phone number spelled New Sofa, and that's how everybody remembered it. And that's it. There's no deeper meaning to it. It's just my phone number was 215 New Sofa.

SPEAKER_02 31:44

I was taking it like you're gonna be in here so much, it's like a new sofa.

SPEAKER_04 31:48

Sure, but that that's that was it was just that's funny. Yeah, it's just no real like deep significance to it. Yeah, a fragment of that.

SPEAKER_02 31:56

Yeah. All right, so back to the nightmare.

SPEAKER_04 31:59

Okay, so this is the band that made me pull down like my Facebook page for the studio. I stopped rec I took six months off of recording. Okay, because it was the last time I worked with because now I I generally as a rule uh I won't work with a band if I don't know them or take the time to get to know them. What I'll do is if a someone really wants to record with me and I think I might be able to help them, because that's the first thing. I c try to figure out what they want because I know I'm not for everyone. It's not an elitist thing. It's just sometimes people have these expectations of a very like polished record, and they should probably go to you. But this band, uh they had expectations of like they were recording at the record plan, but they were on a budget recording here with me. And the guitar player was dead set on using his amp. Now I'm gonna describe something to you, and I want you to know this isn't this isn't me trying to be hyperbolic. I'm not exaggerating. He brought his guitar in, not in a case, he had done something weird to the neck, and he fixed the headstock with drywall screws through the fretboard at the top. So he glued it and ran screws into it through the face, and then something else happened to it, it was kind of messed up. And for his guitar amp, he brought in an old Ampeg B-15 bass amp that he liked to play his guitar through with a distortion pedal. It was one of the worst sounds I've ever heard. His guitar intonation was so it's what he liked. So I kind of record what you present. Like I try not to inter my big thing is I try not to interfere.

SPEAKER_03 33:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 33:44

Because just because I like something doesn't mean you're gonna like it. I try not to put my taste onto what you're doing. I mean, I'm I'm I might stick my opinions in there, but at the end of the day, like if you're coming in and this is your sound, it's not my place to judge it or mess with it if that's what you want. The problem is, I think in his head, he thought he was playing through two Marshall Full stacks with a really nice guitar, and he wasn't. So when he we kept listening back to it, it was kind of like, Well, why does it sound like that? I'm like, Well, that's how it sounds in the room. Yeah, he couldn't. It doesn't sound any different. My guitar doesn't sound like that. And it was just kind of like, yes, it does. And the sessions only got worse from there. Like the drummer insisted on using his own drums, and the heads looked like they hadn't been changed in 20 years. I think he was used to being mic'd, so he had the lightest touch of any drummer I've ever heard. And then there was parts where he's like, Well, I want that to be louder, and I all I could think was, Well, why didn't you play that part louder? Like he wanted the all the dynamics to be artificial and uh it was oh my lord, it was just such a mess. Like they they had no content.

SPEAKER_02 34:49

Did you guys finish anything?

SPEAKER_04 34:51

I finished it. I finished it.

SPEAKER_02 34:54

I were you okay afterwards? Did you go to therapy?

SPEAKER_04 34:57

Uh no, but I I did re-evaluate like what I was doing and how I was doing it, and I took some time off from working with people.

SPEAKER_02 35:05

Oh, that's when you took the six months off.

SPEAKER_04 35:07

I I literally took almost six months off. I like I turned to the biggest.

SPEAKER_02 35:10

How long, how many did like how much time did you guys like how much did you guys work on? Was it like an album? Was it just a single?

SPEAKER_04 35:16

It was a six-song EP.

SPEAKER_02 35:18

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 35:19

And it was the longest longest six songs of my life. Yeah. It was it wasn't worth my time, it wasn't worth the money. So that's why now I'll do a thing where if somebody knew I want to work with them, I won't even commit to more than two songs. Okay. Because if you come in on a week, these people really give me some some drama. But it it kind of worked out because now I'll have someone come in and I'll only commit to two songs. But if we work together and the two songs go well, yeah, then I'll decide if I can do more with them. But it also gives them the flip side. They can hear what I'm doing and decide, am I really the right person for this?

SPEAKER_03 35:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 35:54

Because there have been times where I've recorded a couple songs for people and they're it's gone well, but they're just not happy with what I do. And no harm, no foul, but it's great for both of us. Now nobody's locked into anything, nobody's mad.

SPEAKER_02 36:07

Um and you took you, so you used to have a uh a studio page and you took that down. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 36:12

You didn't want anybody to find you. I just well, I I just there's well, there's such saturation out there. It got to the point where anybody with a credit card and access to a guitar center in a basement was calling themselves a studio. I know, yeah. And not not that this is, you know, a giant facility or anything, but I've I've spent a lot of time working on things and collaborating with a lot of people. And there's a lot of experience I think I can bring to somebody's project that you're not gonna get from someone who just bought a bunch of stuff at Guitar Center and is calling themselves a studio. Yeah. But at the same time, no one really wants to pay for that. And yeah the economics of it are frustrating. So um most of the stuff I do these days, it's people I want to work with, and everything else is secondary. It's it's you know, uh, not to sound altruistic, it's way more about the art someone's trying to make and helping someone make their project. Like I'm not doing this for any kind of financial gain. Like if it was, I would have learned to play covers 30 years ago, you know.

SPEAKER_02 37:14

And and how do you feel about cover bands?

SPEAKER_04 37:16

I think they're the enemy. Um, but at the same time, like that's cover, let me let me restate this. Cover bands are entertainment for people when they're in a bar, right? Like there's no art to it, there's nothing interesting going on. It's just very rote going through the motions. I I hate nothing worse than someone singing off their phone, singing to a tablet. Drives me crazy. Like I can't, I can't stand it. Like I have to learn all my songs, and I'm not standing up there singing to an iPad instead of the room. Right. Uh it's just kind of the worst. So again, not to if people choose to do that as entertainment, that's that's fine. That's for them. It's just, it's not for me. It's nothing I want to hear.

SPEAKER_03 37:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 37:58

You know, and like you were saying, like, if I go to uh the the rare times I'll go to an open mic, I'm way more interested in seeing people try to create something on the spot than playing like another version of Can't You See for the 50th time. Right. Like I I no one needs to hear that. Right. I can't say that enough.

SPEAKER_02 38:18

Oh, that's funny. Um what about like if someone's a bag of nerves? How do you how do you deal with the nervous people? Do you have many of them?

SPEAKER_04 38:26

Um, I I have. I I'm not saying I can calm everybody down, but I try to demystify what we're doing. I think some people get like red light fever and they get so intimidated by recording. It's not that big of a deal. Like if you know your stuff, then I try not to be intrusive. I I try to be professional. Um I had a band I'm not gonna throw under the bus because it's funny. Um their initial impression of me was that I was very stiff. Okay, because I didn't know them and I couldn't be myself, and I was just very business-like, so therefore they thought they couldn't be themselves, and it took a little while to get past that shattered figures, but you know, now we're all friends and it's okay.

SPEAKER_02 39:06

It was them, that's funny. Yeah, yeah, but now you guys are great.

SPEAKER_04 39:09

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 39:10

And there's right now Was that the first time you've recorded with them? Was this album?

SPEAKER_04 39:14

Yes, okay, yeah, yeah, it's the first time I recorded with them. And there's um there's another band locally called Jelly Knives that I'm working with right now, and I'm very excited about what they're doing because they're kind of taking this like indie pop, like very twe, like K records kind of like indie pop, like boy-girl vocal thing. But the music has like the backbone of old, like like an old hoosker do record. So it's got these great male-female vocals, but the backbone of the band has just teeth. So it's very melodic and it's very aggressive, and the songs are like all under two minutes long. Uh, and they just kind of nail it, and they're doing it with keyboards. Under two-minute songs, wow. And they're doing that's nothing. They're doing it with keyboards, bass, and drums, and they did they just kind of create the sound that's a little different but completely works at the same time. Like it's just got drive and a lot of energy to it, but it's also chock full of like really cool harmonies and melody at the same time.

SPEAKER_02 40:17

What was the name of that band?

SPEAKER_04 40:18

Jelly Knives.

SPEAKER_02 40:19

Jelly Knives. I gotta remember. I I could put that on. They got they got stuff that's released right now?

SPEAKER_04 40:23

Uh, just a little bit. We're uh kind of like in like a pre-production phase for their stuff.

SPEAKER_02 40:28

And but do they have anything before this that that if I went in my car and no? No. So I gotta wait.

SPEAKER_04 40:34

Yeah, sorry.

SPEAKER_02 40:36

It sounds very like I want to hear it.

SPEAKER_04 40:38

I want to hear what uh I'm I'm also very excited about what they're doing. I also co-run um a small record label called Uranium Rush, and it's a their record is gonna be like the one of the next records we put out, but most likely it's gonna have seven or eight songs on a seven-inch record because all their songs are short, so we can probably fit three or four on a side. Yeah. And we're very excited about doing that.

SPEAKER_02 41:01

Yeah, that's awesome. Um, besides, so you had the one band with the guitar and everything. Um, do you have do you do you have you do you deal with like a lot of tough personalities, or how do you cope with that at all? Or is it usually pretty?

SPEAKER_04 41:15

Well, these these days it's not really an issue. Most most people you've kind of evolved to where you're if you don't fit, you're out. The two the the commit two song commitment policy is really kind of worked out. Yeah. Because it's weeded me out from a few people, showing them I'm not right. And at the same time, it's also let me figure things out. Like, do I want to spend a bunch of weekends with this group of people? Like, how do they work? How do they operate?

SPEAKER_03 41:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 41:41

Uh, and it just kind of weeds it out. And like, not for nothing. Like, I've spent a lot of time in this, you know, the underbelly, if not the CD side, but like the underground side of music. The the you know, I come from playing in punk and hardcore bands and stuff. So like you kind of get used to a lot of different personalities. That's never, never really been an issue because from the get-go, if I think someone's problematic, I just won't even think about working with them.

SPEAKER_03 42:10

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's nice.

SPEAKER_04 42:11

Yeah, I don't, I don't want to work. Like, I don't mind people that are goofy or odd or off. It's just I don't want to work with any tough guys or knuckleheads.

SPEAKER_02 42:18

Yeah. Um, what what's um what's one piece of gear or one mic that you definitely can't go without?

SPEAKER_04 42:26

Oh, uh, my sure green bullet. Is that's a mic? Yeah, it's like an old harmonica microphone. It makes everything sound like it's coming through a telephone. Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_02 42:36

So you don't have to use any EQ when you want that sound.

SPEAKER_04 42:39

It's it's because it's got such a narrow bandwidth to it, it's already half distorted and narrow. How much do they cost? Um, not a vintage, like a new one. I don't know. They're probably under a hundred bucks each other. Oh, really? Yeah, it's not an expensive mic. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 42:53

Yeah. It just sounds like something that would be good to have to experiment because you know, when I do some mixing, like if I'm doing like some hip hop, oh yeah, I need one of these. I don't know if Jason has one of these. Yeah. Because then when people do their ad libs, like in hip hop, I feel like this would be great. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, instead of using a instead of, you know, doing the other stuff, use an actual mic.

SPEAKER_04 43:17

Uh the other thing I like to use that with, there's a in pedal form. Uh there's a pedal out there uh where it's designed to sound like an overloaded preamp from an old tape recorder. And when I use that in conjunction with that mic, it's that perfect walkie-talkie, like distorted accent, you know, ad lib mic. It's just right on the money with no effort. And it's got a XLR out on it too. So you can go in and balance out.

SPEAKER_02 43:45

I'll show it to you. That's great. That's great. I love that. All this gear in here, I'm assuming you just collected all this over the years. It wasn't like, did you get like a lump sum on money when you started and you're like Oh no. Yeah, this seems like this seems like a room. Almost like mine, but I don't have as much as you.

SPEAKER_04 44:02

Well, here's the thing. Um I'm trying to figure out the percentage of stuff that's actually not mine, but lives here. Oh, okay. There's probably like five or six guitars here that don't belong to me but live here. Um everything else is pretty much mine, but there there are there's some there's some instruments that live here that aren't mine. I take care of them. Their owners come and visit them occasionally, but they Why don't they take them? Uh do you have any friends with uh gas guitar acquisition syndrome where they just keep buying too much stuff? I do.

SPEAKER_02 44:37

And then they dump it here.

SPEAKER_04 44:38

Well, whatever.

SPEAKER_02 44:39

Uh you know, you put some Do they care if other people play them?

SPEAKER_04 44:42

Not at all. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 44:43

They wind up on other people's records. Yeah. That's great. Um how do you I don't I don't how do you price your sessions? Like, do you do day rates? Do you do hourly? Uh do you work is it per client, you know?

SPEAKER_04 44:58

Honestly, it's floating and flexible. You know, if I'm working with like uh a band and they're they're young and they're new, like I'm I'm not gonna charge them a lot. I at the end of the day, like I don't want to say like I'm not interested in the money because that sounds kind of backwards. I'm more interested in what they're doing.

SPEAKER_02 45:19

Yeah, because you're doing it more, you're not doing it for a living.

SPEAKER_04 45:21

Right. And then whatever I get is the offset, and 90% of the time I put it back into something in the room. Like a lot of stuff in this room was financed by recording people. Right. Like if I if I do an album, you know, I'll take that and I'll I'll upgrade a preamp or something, or you know, I'll pay my electric bill and then I'll turn around and you know, get one of the amps refurbished or something like that. So a lot of a lot of the upkeep in here comes from working. Well, uh it's almost like I'm a nonprofit. Like I'll make a profit, but then I just put it right back into the room and then it it's here for other people to use.

SPEAKER_02 45:53

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 45:54

I and I know that's kind of cool. That's kind of cool.

SPEAKER_02 45:56

That's I mean, that's a good thing. You're you're you're lucky to to to be able to take that approach, I feel like, you know.

SPEAKER_04 46:01

Right. But it at the end of the day, again, like I'm I'm more interested in in the art side of what people are doing versus trying to monetize it. It's probably why I'll never be like a good business person. Yeah. Because I I'm definitely more interested in what they're trying to create and trying to get out there versus trying to pay the bills with it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, you're just about the art. Yeah. If anything, like I'm the person keeping people out of your studio. Yeah. Like, unfortunately. Like you're talking to the enemy. Yeah, I am, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I'm I'm I'm the enemy of your studio. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 46:35

Like right, like I'm not gonna release his podcast, probably, because I want nobody to know who you are and where you're at. Yeah. No, you know, well, no, it's good. No, it's fine. Um, um you are the enemy though. And I kind of envy you. Well, I'm glad we can have these peace talks. Yeah, yeah, right. Well, we're gonna wrap this one up. Um, he's gonna take all the business. No. No, no, no, no, I'm just kidding. I'm really not. I'm just kidding.

SPEAKER_04 47:00

More more people want what a place like Drowning Fish can do than what I can do in this old barn.

SPEAKER_02 47:07

Like when I I think it depends. Well, I feel like the bands that you work with, though, this is what they want.

SPEAKER_04 47:12

Sort of. Like when I moved in here, this place had a half-dirt floor. This was like an old carriage barn. You can actually, I'll show you when we're done. You can see the barn door sliders. The screws were so rusty I couldn't get them out. So I just took the barn doors down, I put walls up, put a door in, put the subfloor in, you know, heat and air conditioning, re-ran all the power out here, drywalled it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 47:34

Uh so and what year, what how long has this been here?

SPEAKER_04 47:37

2006.

SPEAKER_02 47:38

Oh, you've been here for 20 years. Oh, yeah, yeah. I think you did say that. Wow.

SPEAKER_04 47:42

Yeah, it's it's definitely evolved over time. Like even our baffles, our baffles are made out of things that people left behind on construction sites. Okay. At the end of a job. So there'd be like leftover wood, leftover drywall, leftover insulation. So all my baffles are made out of things that were going to dumpsters.

SPEAKER_02 48:01

Yeah. I just that's like the wall in the live room of Drowning Fish. It's the um pallets. It's a whole bunch of pallets that they that they got in Philadelphia all over the place, and then that's what they're called, right? Those wooden things. Yeah. Yeah. And then they stripped them, and that's the whole wall. It's just these Philadelphia pallets all up the wall. Right.

SPEAKER_04 48:18

Like my back wall is all cedar shingle. And that was left over from a job I was working on. It was the leftover shingles, and I figured there'd be enough to do the back wall. And it was just enough to do the back wall. Just don't look at the bottom. Now I'm gets a little dicey in the bottom row. I probably should have put one more row on, but I figured like the amps will cover it.

SPEAKER_02 48:36

Yeah, there you go. Yeah, the amps cover it. Um I know I asked a question. You told me that story about that one band, but I don't know if it was crazy. Like, what was one of the craziest sessions you've ever had? Did I ask that?

SPEAKER_04 48:48

No, you asked me the worst because crazy and worst, those are two different things.

SPEAKER_02 48:52

Yeah, I said, yeah, nightmare story. Yeah. So what, yeah, so something crazy. Like so, I guess crazy, yeah, is a better. Well, maybe like crazy but fun. Crazy but fun. Like, what's the most yeah, crazy but fun? Like we'll see where you go.

SPEAKER_04 49:03

So I I I'm a big fan of some music that people a lot of people won't like. It'll be too arty, too weird, too experimental. But we've done stuff out here where we we've recorded um, you know, 55 gallon drums and propane tanks as part of the percussion. And one time it just made it easier. We took the toms off the drum kit and I bungee corded a propane tank on its side. So we they the there was that like a propane tank mounted on the drum kit to be played, so we didn't have to over it was all done as live percussion at once. Um a propane tank. Wow.

SPEAKER_02 49:39

I've that's fun. I love that kind of stuff.

SPEAKER_04 49:41

We had a we had a song where they they wanted it just to sound like nighttime, and up here in the summer, because we're on the edge of all the farm fields, the level of cicadas and bugs at night can be deafening. So I I ran two long cables out the door, and we set up I love that. We set up a stereo field outside, and we recorded like a half hour of just cars going by occasionally and the crickets, and we wound up like fading that in and fading that out, like faded in at the beginning of the track, let it run through the song, faded it out at the end. Um that that was a lot of fun. I love that.

SPEAKER_02 50:16

Uh, one time I love all that stuff with recording, and it's it, and that's it's those moments are so special because you're literally recording a specific time of time, you know, and it's like you're not gonna get that recording ever again, right?

SPEAKER_04 50:30

And it doesn't sound canned because it's it's very it's very much what was happening. Um, I've done stuff too where I'm not afraid to try loud things. We had a Fender Deville sitting on the piano bench, all the knobs were turned up all the way. We used a booster pedal to push the pre-amp, and while we were recording, the amp was literally like teetering back and forth and shaking. It was so loud, like we thought it was just gonna blow up. Uh, we got it through the take. But like I I I love loud sounds, I love feedback. So uh sometimes sometimes like we'll use like the old marshalls and stuff, but other times, like you know, sometimes you can have a terrible guitar amp that just doesn't sound good, and that becomes the most perfect thing ever, you know, for noise. That's why there's a PV sitting over your shoulder.

SPEAKER_03 51:20

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 51:21

Yeah, it's the official guitar amp of Levitown, Pennsylvania, between 1985 and 1992. Every other household was issued one of those in Levitown, like every other house got one. Is that a joke? No, no, I really think they were that common that you could knock on every other door and somebody would hand you a PV bandit. That's funny. Um that amp is the sound of my childhood.

SPEAKER_03 51:44

Yeah, yeah. Sorry.

SPEAKER_02 51:49

Um, what what is there a session or a song or a project that when you were recording, it was just like like one of the most special. Like you've you've done a lot of recordings, so I don't know.

SPEAKER_04 52:00

But is there one that sticks out that you're like there's there's some there's some memorable ones. Uh I had a good friend who had a very interesting project that was uh a lot of us contributed to it. Like he didn't have a set band, and even when he played live, it was like a rotating cast of friends. And um I had a session with him. It was like the last song I recorded with him. It was just a really good time, and shortly after that he passed away from cancer. So like that one always stands out because he was playing so well and it wound up being the l it wound up being like the last time I ever got to record with him. Um the other thing is like I've had a lot of great sessions out here because I have friends in my life that are in my life because they walked through that door and recorded with me. Yeah, there's people I wouldn't know that became very important in my life that I know from working out of this room.

SPEAKER_03 53:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 53:03

Yeah. So that's special in itself of all the people. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 53:06

And then every once in a while, like there's a there's like a moment when you're recording with someone and you kind of know they're really just they're just hitting, hitting all the right places. And you you turn around because a lot of times I work, I have my back to people. I don't watch them. I'm watching, I'm watching the levels, and I try not, I I try to I try to be as small as possible when I'm in the room. So they're more comfortable. Right. So I'm not here. And there's times where somebody will hit a point, like on the shattered figures record, we went to do this one vocal and it was like a loud vocal. And I just watched the needle just suddenly on the compressor just go like just slammed all the way over. Yeah. And I the vocal take was amazing. It's still it made it onto the record, but it was one of those things where I was worried it was going to be distorted, but not good distorted.

SPEAKER_03 53:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 53:54

It just clips enough that it just lends itself to her vocal at that point. And like that. So it sounded all right. Right. That that was all right. Um, not to be like self-promoting, but with my current band, we were name applied knowledge. Applied Knowledge. So the the first EP we did, we recorded here.

SPEAKER_02 54:14

And so there's some of this released, right? Like if I went in my car on the way home, I could be here. Okay.

SPEAKER_04 54:18

Sure, sure. Um, our first EP we recorded, and we wanted to have like a very specific sound. So I didn't do a traditional drum setup. Um I I did two room mics, one in the kick drum and one overhead, and that was it. I only used four mics, and it it's a very like sharp and slightly like not completely harsh, but it's very much the sound we wanted for the EP. And it felt very good at the time to record it. And I was very happy. I'm like, I did that with four mics. Yeah. Yeah. Uh so there, there's things like that, and a lot of times the rewarding moments are the looks on people's faces after they do a take, and they're just really happy with what they did. There's this really great uh band I love working with. I've done multiple albums with them called Sins of Magnus, and they're like some of my favorite people to work with. There's times where like they'll do something and they're like not in a bad way, but they're like so happy they're like watching little kids at Christmas. Like they'll do something and they're all happy and they'll turn to each other and they're just smiling. I know, yeah. Like, okay, we did good today.

SPEAKER_02 55:22

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That is one of the best parts is the happiness. Like you, you giggle. I do.

SPEAKER_04 55:28

I can't help it. I'm kind of an idiot sometimes. We all are. Yeah, but I'm not good at hiding it, so it's just all it's just out there.

SPEAKER_02 55:36

Some people get goosebumps, some people giggle. You know, what are you gonna do? Yeah. Um, would you have any advice for like like younger people that want to get into engineering, like up-and-coming engineers? Yeah, don't do it. It's a rabbit hole. It is a rabbit.

SPEAKER_04 55:51

It's a rabbit hole of gear and problems. And like if you're if you're if if you're fine with uh now, I I get a pass a lot because again, most of the people close to me play instruments or in bands. So if I say something like, Yeah, I can't come to your barbecue because I have a session this weekend, no one's gonna get mad at me. Also, I've been doing this so long that like it's just kind of like factored in, but it it will change your life. Like, if you want to do it, do it. The the you know, I I don't want to be the old guy just spitting out information, but the best thing I think anybody could do is find someone who's already recording and just crash any session you can. Like, I've learned so much from sitting next to people while they're working and then asking questions versus trying to figure things out on my own. Um, so I I think collaboration, collaboration is the way to go. Like, yeah, I'm obviously not a solo artist. I I don't work alone. I I work well with other people, I'd rather work with other people. Like I like that sense of collaboration. Like I'm not competitive, but I definitely like collaboration.

SPEAKER_03 57:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 57:01

So uh so I'm not rambling too much. I would tell people find someone who's already doing it and try and and then vary it, like sit with other people. Because if you're if you're working on just one style over and over again, you're gonna see one set of techniques, but then try to do other things, you know. Like don't don't just do loud, do an acoustic album. If someone wants to bring in uh you know synths and electronic backing tracks, work with them, work with as many people as you can just to get a better feel for what's out there.

SPEAKER_02 57:33

Yeah, and that's how you just keep learning and learning what you like. Exactly. I mean, it's kind of like the question I asked earlier like, how long did it take you to commit and like know, like, oh, when we do this overdub on this guitar, we're gonna EQ like this, we're gonna do like that. But that's all experience and time that you just trial and error. And trial and error. I know. I my engineer brain gets like so, but I'm like I said, I'm coming from uh being like, okay, we're not gonna be that kind of engineer anymore. Let's go back to the art and the original plan. And um that it's like there's like a small panic when you have to make a commitment, you know what I mean? But I know I'm gonna get better at it. I I've been doing it and it and and I'm very excited because I'm like, this is great, but there is a what if I play this back and well a thing that actually it's funny, like helped me feel justified in my gonzo commitments to things, like, yeah, I like that.

SPEAKER_04 58:27

Let's just record it that way and not lock it in, not be able to change it. I was watching uh this it's gonna get nerdy for a second. I was watching a documentary uh about Tony Viscotti recording Bowie's Heroes. Okay, and they were playing back like the original master recording, and they only had at Hansa Studios, they only had 16 tracks. So anything they did, they had to commit to. So there was only one track for bass, and the bass has a flanger on it. So they didn't put it on after the fact. They're like, that's the sound, we had to commit to it. So when he's playing back the tape, it's just how it sounds on the record, but you can't change it, you know. And it's so easy in the world of digital recording to try way too many things, and it's it's like it's like when you get your first keyboard and exhausting. You're sitting there and you're like, is it this piano sound or is it that piano sound? But if it only had one piano sound, that's what you're gonna work. Right, right. That's why I'll I'll take a farfisa organ over a synthesizer any day. Like, yep, that's pretty much the sound this thing makes. Yeah, there's not much you can do with it.

SPEAKER_02 59:28

Yeah, keep it simple, keep it real, make it work, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 59:31

And and the other, the other thing maybe would be don't worry so much about how like your gear or how good your gear is. Figure out what it can do and know how to use it. Well, right. What you take it as far as you can. Like if you have two mics, figure out everything good and bad you can do with those mics or what you can use them for versus worrying about like what the next shiny object is that's gonna fix everything.

SPEAKER_02 59:56

Right, because it doesn't. Because if you don't know what you're doing, it doesn't. Yeah. So those are two, those that those are both good advice. The uh the don't just buy things because you think it's gonna make you better. Right. And then what was the other thing that you said? Um work with people, work with people and like learn, yeah, which is which is a really good when I was working in Manhattan, it was awesome because I was working behind like professionals of the professionals. I learned so much, you know, and Grammy winners and this and that, and and and it just a very professional environment. And I learned so much. And then when I left and I built my home studio, it really sucked because that's when I realized I was working with all these like younger people that have no education in any of it, anything. And I'm actually the smartest one in the room now. Like, so who am I learning from? Because to me, what you're saying, it's very important to see other people's techniques and hear them and mixing and this and that, and and then you try it and you're like, oh, okay, and that's how you learn.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:52

Yeah, so yeah, that's a really that's really important thing. And there's also nothing wrong with knowing that like there's always gonna be someone that probably can do it better.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:00

Two of my favorite records I recorded, I didn't mix, and they're I think they both sound fantastic. Like, just do your part in the process. Yeah, and if someone has better ears for something, like let them do it.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:13

Have you ever recorded something and then somebody else mixed it and they destroyed your recording?

SPEAKER_04 1:01:17

No, no, I I've never had any bad experiences like that. Like uh it's only it's only been positive experiences.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:24

Okay, because that's something like we're now working on drowning fish. I'm trying to sell it to a lot of these people, like, hey, at least record here. Then if you want to take it and you want to do whatever, but at least record. Um, but then I'm like freaked out in the head. I'm like, what if they take it and they destroy everything I recorded properly by mixing it terribly and then my name's on it as the recorder and it doesn't even you know? So I'll deal with that when it happens. So we've covered a lot of stuff. Do you do is there anything else that you would uh want to talk about? Or do you feel like oh I don't know. Um we could keep going forever. I could be talking about drumming and micing and all this stuff, you know, as much as I can get from the enemy so I can make sure I uh use this information wisely in my career.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:12

Um, well, see, I I'll spend a lot of time watching interviews with other engineers, uh studio tours, trying to, you know, I'll I'll watch anything where someone's talking about here's how I did this and how I got that sound. Yeah. And then try to figure out like, well, how can I do that on a budget? Or what substitutions can I make to try the same sort of thing. Yeah. Um I'll I'll do a lot of that. Like, and I'm not afraid to try things because especially like if you don't like it, just don't keep it, erase it. Yeah. Just not every not everything I do works. So I mean, sometimes my ideas are terrible. Yeah. Or it's I think it's the right idea, and it's really the wrong idea for the band. So I just try to listen to what they want and try to be receptive.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:54

How do you handle like if if you do try out your ideas and it takes up a couple hours and then ends up you guys don't even want it? Do you do you charge for that, or do you feel like, oh man, like I kind of am just gonna give you this time because I was experimenting?

SPEAKER_04 1:03:09

There's there's times where like it's been a paying session and I'm on the clock and like I've taken it in the wrong direction. And I you I never would ding somebody for that. But at the same time, like I I don't want to say everything is much more casual these days because people are working hard and taking it seriously. But I've also learned like not to interfere so much, like not to overcomplicate things and uh especially make sure your their vision is right, especially if someone already knows what they want to do when they come in. Like these days, every guitar player has a pedal board with too many pedals on it, and they have like a very manicured setup. Yeah, so it takes all the work out of it for me, as long as like they got the sound they want as long as they can sound the way they want to sound in the room, I can capture it and I don't have to do a lot of work because they already know what they want. Yeah, I don't mind when someone doesn't know what they want trying to help them get a sound or you know, play me something like they want it to sound like this, and I'll I'll try to listen to it and figure out like, okay, we could try, you know, put A, B, and C together and see if we can get you close to that. Yeah. And sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't, but most of the time I I can dial something in pretty quick. Yeah. And I'll try to do it with the least amount of crap possible. Right. Because as much as like I have been collecting pedals since I was a kid, um if I'm not using pedal, that that's fine. Like if I can get the guitar and the amp to sound good, like why why mess with it? Like when you plug a P bass into an SVT, like an old ampeg, you shouldn't need anything else. Like you can add things to it, but it's kind of a cheap date. You can do a lot with it, and it's just kind of like it's all there and you don't have to change anything, you know, a little roll of the tone knob or the volume knob, and you got a completely different sound without adding anything to it. It's like a less pollinator Marshall. Yeah, you have if you have a good old Marshall and like a guitar setup nice, like it's gonna work, it's gonna do the thing you want it to do. Yeah, but uh I don't know. I I again I'll I'll try to stay out of the way as much as I can at the same time, especially again. If somebody's coming in and they would know what they want, perfect.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:18

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:18

And then you yeah, just just just capture it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I guess the other thing for me too is I always try to start with the drum sound. For me, like the drums have to sound good first, and then I feel like I'm building everything on top of that. I'm very rhythm section oriented. I want the bass and drums to sound good.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:35

Yeah, because it's I don't want to- That's what I when I when I always do the drums, when I mix, I always do the drums first and then the bass. Right.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:41

And then I'll go to and I make that division of labor. Like, what's gonna be the lowest note? Is the bass gonna be the lowest thing? Is the kick drum gonna be the lowest thing? Once I get that set up, adding the guitars in at that point is just yeah, always a lot easier.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:53

Yeah, yeah, that's true.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:55

Um and I know other people work from the top down, they'll work with guitar and vocals and work back. I can't do that. No, no, I'm not that good.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:02

Like I gotta I gotta start. It doesn't make sense to me. Right. It doesn't make sense to me. I I like to get all the like like yo, like at the low and create the bed. The bed this for the for everything else to lay on. Cause I feel like that's kind of how it yeah, how it is. Alright, so I'm gonna ask you the final question. You know the final question. I don't remember it. I should. You should. And then we'll and then that way we we can get the camera off there and then we'll just show around and wrap it up. How is music your hero?

SPEAKER_04 1:06:31

Music has always kept me out of trouble. Like I I've been it started when I like this gonna I I hope this doesn't go on too long. It star my fascination with music started as a little kid. Like it was the 70s, and the speakers in the living room were wooden and as tall as I was. Yeah. And my my dad was not a rock guy. He listened to a lot of classical music, but he listened to it like he was listening to Black Sabbath. And as a little kid, he showed me how you could blow matches out with a speaker from an orchestra from an orchestra hit. So I was fascinated with how sound can do that. Sound and volume. And I've just been up ups like I've been obsessed with how sound works and how sound interacts ever since. So it's just been one of those things, it's been a constant source of uh comfort in my life, in a sense, because everything just keeps coming back to music. And it's brought a lot of people into my life that are very important, but they wouldn't be here if we weren't tied together through music. Yeah. Yeah. Because it it I I think it keeps me healthy in a sense, it keeps me social. Yeah, it keeps me interacting with other people. Yeah, it gets me out of the house. Yeah, it lets me collaborate. It it's it's doing all the things for me that it needs to do. Um, so basically, music in a sense, music my hero, because music has saved my life many times over.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:55

Yeah, that's a great answer. All right. Well, thank you so much for taking the time to uh sit here and talk about all this stuff with me. It was great to to meet you and listen. And um, yeah. I appreciate you coming all the way up here. Yeah, of course.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:11

Until next time, keep creating, keep connecting, and keep building together. Remember, we're in this together, so let's keep each other dying alive.