SPEAKER_01 0:33

Let's go with creativity side by side. It is creative.

SPEAKER_02 0:44

All right, here I am today in this uh office. Look at this office. I'm in on Market Street in Philadelphia with Steve Vanyo, who is an entertainment lawyer. Um thank you so much for taking the time today to sit here and talk with me about the things that you do.

SPEAKER_00 1:00

Really appreciate it. Thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_02 1:01

Yeah, of course. Of course. Uh so what kind of so you're an entertainment lawyer. What do you is there a specialty?

SPEAKER_00 1:08

No, not really. Uh I think when you can go into other types of entertainment law, some people are just entertainment lawyers for producers, some people just for artists themselves, some people for other sport professionals such as managers or agents. Here in Philadelphia, um, it is such that you kind of need to be able to do it all. So I represent musicians, producers, agents, managers, videographers, recording studios, uh filmmakers, documentarians, actors, actresses, script writers, social media stars, podcasts. Um, basically, if you were given a talent, you know, by God, um, the lawyer you call to represent you.

SPEAKER_02 1:45

There you go. Is that your slogan? That's a good thing.

SPEAKER_00 1:47

More or less, yeah. If you're a god given it, if you're a god given talent, give us a call.

SPEAKER_02 1:51

Yeah, I love that. That's amazing. What inspired you? Did did you always want to be a lawyer or did like take you in that direction?

SPEAKER_00 1:58

No, so I wanted to be a rock star. Like, I think a lot of people, you know, that are entertainment support professionals, uh, they try it out being on the art artist side of the of the of the ledger. And for us, we were playing um, I was in a band with my high school buddies, and we were playing like basements in north and west Philly, sometimes down in Baltimore. Uh, and we were progressing along enough that we had gotten some like minor radio airplay on WZZO in the Lehigh Valley. Uh, we were doing some Northeast touring, so Connecticut, Maryland, New Jersey. Um, and we got approached by a small-time indie label. They were gonna offer us some cash and sign us, and because they were like, hey, we hear something here and we think we can develop you. And knowing what it had been like to play a show for 20 bucks in a six-pack of Paps Blue Ribbon, I was just so excited that somebody finally wanted to put like real money into our project. And when we got the contract, I was like, I don't care what this says, we'll deal with it later. Every band has a terrible first contract, every artist has a terrible first contract, or at least that's what I heard on VH1. So I was like, I don't really care what this says. Somebody's offering us money, let's just do it because it's finally not money we're taking from our summer jobs or our side gigs while we were still in school. And we took it to a lawyer who didn't really know anything about the entertainment world, and even they were like, you know, this is not good for you and you're for your career. And at that point, it became a decision for me of like, okay, I wish that he knew what it was like to load up an SUV with like a drum set and having to decide which rack time you want to bring in because you don't have all the room, or getting shocked by the world's worst microphone and having to put someone's dirty sock over it to act as you know, like a filter so you don't get shocked. And he hadn't been that, like he had been in his office and and he it wasn't doing entertainment, it was more of just a favor. And I just kept hearing all the time all my friends that were getting offers or were getting signed to labels. Um, they were like, Yeah, we we don't know who to go to. And I was like, Well, I could do that. So from there, when we didn't become rock stars, our band broke up. I ended up at Temple Law here in Philly and just met up with, you know, my boss, Lloyd Remick, and Tom Duffy, who owns the office we're in today, the Duffy firm, he's a big-time like medical malpractice lawyer, and Lloyd is like the founder of entertainment law in the city, more or less. Um, he's been doing it since 1978. So he's worked with everybody from Grover Washington Jr. who did just the two of us, to uh Bunny Ziggler, who's an eight-time Grammy Award winner, part of like the Sound of Philadelphia era.

SPEAKER_03 4:34

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 4:34

Um, and then also at the time there was a guy by the name of Chris Cabot who reps uh, you know, everybody from Big Germ who was like Mac Miller's longtime producer to DJ Paul of 36 Mafia to even helping uh Jimmy Rollins of the Philadelphia Philly setting up his own uh music publishing company. So joined up from there, you know, worked my way up from an intern where, you know, you can't see it now, but around our office we have this little alcove, and that's where my desk was where I first started. Right next to my desk was the toilets. So I moved my way up from the sh part of the office, no pun intended, uh, to be in here where I am now. And I've been doing it for about five years license, but I've been in the game, so to speak, since like 2017.

SPEAKER_02 5:20

Okay. All right, cool. Um, and how do you like it?

SPEAKER_00 5:24

Oh, I love it. I mean, I think like the thing I say is that I'm dealing with someone either on the best day of their life because they have a deal and they're getting money for their art, which seems like such an impossible dream to achieve nowadays, or unfortunately, I'm dealing with them on the worst day of their life because they're getting sued, because they're having a dispute that they need that needs resolved, or you know, something has happened where they didn't get the proper legal protections for their art, and now someone's taking advantage of that fact. So I'm either helping someone achieve their dream or I'm helping someone continue to live their dream by resolving a dispute in an appropriate way. So I, you know, I I think that being a lawyer in the entertainment space is a lot different because I'm not the one that always gets to be there for when the most exciting event happens, you know, was I'm not the concert, I'm not getting, you know, applauded at the end of every time I like sign off on a contract. But just the fact that I can help people make a living in these uncertain times off their art is very, very important to me. And as well as like keeping and playing an important role in Philadelphia's like entertainment economy as a whole, because I think that we kind of get a little bit of like a kid brother treatment from like New York or even like LA now. Um, but if you really look, like Philadelphia is the backbone of the entertainment industry. Like you can look on every major show, you can look on every major album, and someone from Philadelphia is involved in some form or fashion because this city in this market teaches a grit and determination that I think is unmatched anywhere else in the country, if not the entire world.

SPEAKER_02 6:52

Yeah, yeah. No, Philly has a great scene, and there's so much art happening right now. Um, I mean, I'm excited. I hope that Philly can get itself back on the map, you know. I mean, it's on the map, it's on the map, but you know, just like back like you were talking like in the 70s, that was like a good time for Philly. Like it was everything was coming out of Philly.

SPEAKER_00 7:11

Philly is heirs, I think it is, right? And like now we're kind of on the up and up. Like we had a great boon in like 20 to 22, then a little bit of a break, like 23, 24, and now it's really popping back again. I think mostly led by the the rap and the rock scene, but we're starting to get our RB together, our folk together, our electronic music together. Yeah. So I think, and then the city is really making an investment itself with the city government and city-led initiatives, both on the nightlife side of things as well as the you know, overall creative side of things. I think that they see when you know other city governments really invest in entertainment infrastructure, like when Austin first did South by Southwest and they got the buy-in from the city that blew up to be a major must-attend, you know, conference festival, whatever you want to call it. New York has their whole music month in June that's like basically all city government run. And Philly also has that now, and now we just need to see, you know, if we get enough buy-in from the people like at the ground at the ground level, the actual creatives to really extend it. Um, but yeah, I think that Philadelphia breeds a unique type of entertainment professional. And it's a lot of DIY out there. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, you know, I remember playing uh when I was first doing shows, uh a house party uh Diamond and Uber Streets in North Philly. It was called the Nest, and it was called the Nest because like birds gathered twigs and other trash to build nests for their babies. These guys collected beer cans and broken street lights and all sorts of garbage and built it in their basement out. And um, what was great about it was that they could have shows five nights a week because they had really cool neighbors and they weren't they were one of the few row homes that weren't connected to everything. So there was where I sort of really learned like the importance of like DIY and community and like people taking care of each other. Yeah. You know, it was the first time that I really sort of got that punk ethos of where, hey, if you're not getting let into the bars, if you're not getting led into the you know normal scene, like go out and make it yourself and you build enough a community, like you can let it grow. And I think like a lot of the more recent acts coming out of Philly, that's how they really got popular. They built their own communities, and then when those communities grew to be such a size, it was undeniable everywhere else.

SPEAKER_02 9:20

Yeah, yeah. So I think it's super cool and special that you have an artist in you for as a background, as a lawyer, because it's not like you're just you know out there trying to get money. You actually care about the art. So it's always nice when uh I have another buddy who is the same way, and so it's super cool because I think it feels more comfortable as an artist to come to somebody like that since you understand, you know, what it takes. Like you were saying when when in your story, it was like this guy doesn't you know, you know, this, this, that everything involved. So so that's super cool. What what's something that you think is one of the biggest like um legal mistakes that the independent artists are making?

SPEAKER_00 9:59

Well, one, I think it's just kind of like what I call like the terms of terms of service blindness. So I think people think that they're when they're hiring certain services or they're using certain platforms, they think they're getting all this stuff and they're really not, um, especially in distribution. I think people think like, oh, well, should I use this distribution service or that distribution service? And they like the way that the interface looks or they like the name of it, or you know, it's loosely associated with Sony's the Orchard or it's loosely associated with some other big major company, and they feel great about it. And then when it comes time for them to sign their deal, they're like, Hey, my distro is is really held up. The other thing I'm seeing is just sort of not basic intellectual property protection. Um, I think that your IP is the foundation on which you build your house, so that means everything from your name, if you have a specific like sound that people know, like that's a song of yours, especially for hip hop producers who really have done that, you know, with their own beat tags that could be protected by trademark. And then copyright is the be all end all. Um, t-shirt designs, music, music videos, you know, audio, um, whatever you really can get, and even literature and lyrics. Um, and I think that it is so easy to either contact, you know, either me or another legal professional or even some pro bono services and figure out like, okay, what are some basics I need? And then really the other is just not getting whatever money is already on the table, you know, into their checks, into their mailboxes. I think a lot of people don't know what BMI or ASCAP is when I first brought it up. Some people's like my body mass index. And when I brought up, I brought up ASCAP, they're like, oh, like a fake butt, like a BBL. It's like, no, your ass is not, your ass is not capped.

SPEAKER_02 11:37

And I guess like the problem is is with technology and the advancement of everything and moving forward, it's like artists are able to just put their music out. So they they don't even like it's a whole business. And so it's it's how serious do you want to take yourself? I mean, if you're not gonna set your business up, then don't expect to go anywhere because you have to have your business set up. So yeah, they're just out there and uh just so yeah, so that I think that's a huge thing.

SPEAKER_00 12:03

It's like analogous to starting a restaurant, right? Like if you just like to cook in your house for fun and you just want to make some meals for six or seven of your friends, go and do that. But if you want to open a restaurant, you want to sell your food, you gotta do certain things, right? Like at the end of the day, nobody's gonna come to your restaurant at the food stinks. But if you get shut down by the city or the state because you don't have the proper licenses or permits, like that's the thing that can kill your thing too. So I think that people that do want to take music seriously as a business need a certain extent to treat it like a business. And if they don't want to do that, then they need to bring in other people in their team that'll be able to handle certain stuff. Like, I think you can be a CEO and still delegate appropriately. I think like in a DIY culture, like the yourself gets to emphasize when it really should be DIE, which is not a great acronym, but do it for everybody. You know what I mean? Like, we should all be helping one another like in this thing. Like, that's why I think it's so important to give back. Like you and I really had a a great time like getting together with all the recording engineers in the city at Spitfilly, um, which is one of the best recording studios in the city, as well as Drowning Fish, um, because they're able to really service like all sorts of genre bending stuff, you know, and like uh obviously that. So I think like giving back to talks like that is important because knowledge is power and knowledge is so accessible nowadays. And I'd think that a lot of people are looking too much for shortcuts by that information, yeah. Really right.

SPEAKER_02 13:32

Oh, and to save money, that's the thing.

SPEAKER_00 13:34

And to save money, yeah. And there's nothing wrong with that. Um, you know, I don't think you have to go and buy out the library, but you know, everybody should read Don Passman's like everything you should know need to know about the music business. I think that's a great starting point. That's a relatively accessible resource. Yeah. I'm sure your local library has it. If not, it's up somewhere, certain passages that you need to read. And then the other thing is I think that people need to listen to people like yourself who have been in the game, have done it, have that real life experience. Because there's a lot of people that are trying to teach that haven't really done it yet, too. Yeah. So there is that going on in the world. Yeah. So I think that's where sort of mistakes I see is like musicians are finding someone because they have the most amount of followers and the most likes, and they don't know half the time what they're talking about. You know, if I wanted to come and learn how to, you know, mix or master a record, like I'm not just gonna go watch YouTube university a bunch of times. Like, I'm gonna go do my own homework and figure out like, okay, like who is actually doing these things, who's you know, been nominated for Grammys and who's won Grammys, and that's all well and good, but can they actually do the work? Yeah. And I think that's what a lot of people mess up on. They say, like, oh well, I want this guy to produce my record because he produced some other band's record, and I think that's really good. Well, that was their record, your record is your record. Yeah. It may sound close, but that was at a different moment in time, in a different era, different wherever, you know, different weather when you show up to the studio that day. So I think a lot of people are trying to be too much like other people and not really researching and taking on like an amalgamation of uh various advice and various people giving that advice.

SPEAKER_02 15:11

Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, that's a good point. At what point do you think that an independent artist should contact someone like you, an entertainment lawyer, to go to that next level?

SPEAKER_00 15:20

Yeah, I the chicken or egg question I get a lot is manager or entertainment lawyer. And I think either or you want a manager and an entertainment lawyer that knows a little bit about the other side of the other, because an entertainment lawyer can't give you good advice without knowing what actually goes on in your business world. Like I could sit up here all day and be like, well, in the burn convention, which is the European copyright, you know, they created this thing called moral rights, which is not what the US has. So if you have a moral objection to someone the way that's using your copyright for fair use, you have this different cause of action. But really, I'm like, okay, you have this amount of money in your bank account, you know, 500 went to gas, 300 went to new strings because you broke six of them on the string, you know, then the other is like, hey, we gotta go get an air tag because we're going into whatever place we heard one of our buddies, you know, Vance got stolen, and we have this much left over for legal. So our lawyer needs to be efficient with it. So I think independent artists should have a proper legal foundation anything. Like, I wouldn't tell someone to open up a restaurant without getting proper lawyers involved. So I think really they should contact it as whenever, like, okay, this has gone from a hobby to a business. Like, I want to make money off this, I want to have a system set up for me that allows me to focus on creating the revenue generating product, whether that's the music, whether that's the music video, whether that's the live show, and just have a back team of support. And a lawyer can do a lot of those things efficiently and quickly because they've been there before. Like there's a barrier to entry. Like I had to go to law school for three years, I had to go to college for four, I had to pass the bar exam, and then I had to basically grind my way up in the practice to where other people could be like, hey, like you're not just an intern anymore, you're not just, you know, so and so's associate. Like you have your own thing and I value your own opinion as well. Um, so I think that whenever really that independent artist says, okay, this is a business now, this is just a hobby that I'm either really good at or I really enjoy, but I do want to make money off this, and I do take this serious set as a business, is when they should call someone like myself.

SPEAKER_02 17:15

Yeah, yeah. Um, what's something that you think that artists might sign too quickly when it comes to contracts?

SPEAKER_00 17:23

Management contracts. I think a lot of times your first manager is somebody who saw you at a show a bunch, is your friend, and they're just like, hey, I really want to help and be your manager. And nobody knows what that actually means.

SPEAKER_02 17:36

I think a lot of people are like there's so many friend managers, and I'm like, what? Like, this isn't what do you do? Like, what are they even doing? They're not even in the industry.

SPEAKER_00 17:44

Like, hey, like, do you have the basic understanding that you know you have what's a radius clause when you're booking this show out? And they're like, radius clause? Like, I only know diameter clauses, dude. Um, and a radius clause is basically this idea that you can't play like too close to your presenting venue, like too close to the concert date, because then way other people will be like, eh, I'll just go to the next one, which is a little bit closer, a little bit you know, more convenient for my time. But I think that managers will sometimes present contracts and they'll just go and take it, and people will be like, Well, this is my friend, or this is a person that is a family member who's given me money. And I think a lot of people sign that too quickly just because they like the idea of signing something. I think that was certainly my case when I was.

SPEAKER_02 18:26

They like the idea of being like, Oh, I have a manager.

SPEAKER_00 18:27

Yeah, because it makes you seem more important than you actually are. When I see people have a personal assistant or an executive assistant, and I'm like, okay, well, what do you do? And they're like, I send out like six emails for them a week. But a manager really is someone that should be handling everything, right? Like they are, if you're the CEO of your business, they are the COO, the chief operating officer. They need to know what your royalties are getting, how you're collecting your royalties, what you're doing in terms of live performances, what's going on with the merch order, who's the best person to order the merch fulfill order. And I think a lot of people fall into man people call themselves managers and they really fall into other buckets of like booking agents. People are like, well, I want a manager because I want more shows, but then you don't want a manager, you want a booking agent, you know, or hey, I want to get in more news articles and blogs, and I want to get on the music is our hero podcast. Well, okay, you don't need a manager, you need a PR person. And in the early days, a manager does a lot of that stuff, but it's important that a manager has enough of all of those skills. But yeah, people sign management contracts too quickly. Um the other thing they often sign off on a little bit too quickly, I'm seeing, is like sync stuff. So I think a lot of bands are so happy and artists are so happy to like hear their song be used in like a YouTube video or a movie or an advertisement, and they'll just give it away for free. And I'm like, okay, well, what if it becomes successful? And they're like, it won't. And I'm like, then why are you doing it? Right. Like, what do you mean? Why are you why are you associating yourself with a thing that you believe in so little that you're just doing it for a throwaway? I understand budget constraints and all that, but there are certain things where you can work out various compensation packages, like you have a product, the person wants your product that in self means it has value. So treat it like it has value. And I think that's where people get really caught up. They're assigning things because they don't value themselves, they don't value their art, and they don't assign the appropriate value. And the keyword there is the appropriate value, right? Like people are like, I have a uh I had a client who's saying, Oh, well, I'm not gonna sign my first deal till you know I forget my first million dollar offer. And then I was like, that's not really happening, and you're going to lose so much momentum, like waiting for that million and one dollar offer that it may never actually come. So why don't we go take this half a million? Why don't we go take this 750,000 and then build up that leverage for the next deal for you to get paid? Um so I think a lot of people sometimes are a little too overvaluing in their R2, because like people are like, oh, well, I want to own my masters. Okay, well, what are your masters worth? And they're like, well, it's generating me a hundred bucks every three months, and I go, okay, then it's worth $33.33. That's what it's worth right now. And sometimes you need to give up certain ownership and certain rights to bring in other people to help you grow because nobody can do it truly themselves. So people can get to a certain point in themselves, yeah, but at that thing, like you just can't handle it. Going back to the restaurant analogy, you can make the best meals of all time. But if you have a 200 people in your restaurant, you yourself don't really have the skills doing that work. So you need to hire sous chefs and you need to give them autonomy to be able to be like, hey, here's the recipe. I want you to follow it. So you need to build out your team when it becomes truly unmanageable for yourself to handle it. But I think that sometimes people get a manager a little bit too quickly or they don't understand what a manager does. And then with the record deal sort of thing, everybody's so scared to sign one because you only hear about the bad stories. Nobody's talking about hey, my name is uh Haley Williams, I'm in Paramore. I signed a deal when I was 15, and now I'm one of the biggest global superstars ever. Clearly that worked out for uh for Haley and and signing to a label. And there's other people who stayed independent and Never really had that same level of success again. That had they signed that deal, they would have been even bigger, just because it comes to the most valuable resource, which is time. And you only have 24 hours a day of it. But when you add people now, instead of 24 hours in a day, you get 48 hours or 72 and so on and so forth. Um, so I think if people are a little too quick to sign management deals early on, um, and a lot of times they're being generated by AI, which it can grow, but for now it's not to a point where it can truly replace like a lawyer. There's more holes in it than a suit from good. Oh, right, right.

SPEAKER_02 22:36

Well, it's still yeah, because it's a baby.

SPEAKER_00 22:38

Right because it is a baby, and it and it will have an impact. And I encourage everybody, like the Pandora's box is opened, we have AI in our life now. You got to figure out how to use it if you want to be able to exist in this space to like I integrate it into my practice with reasonableness, like and trying to do it as ethically as I can. Um, but now you have to figure out like, okay, is this AI generated document? Is this AI generated song? Is this AI generated flyer? You know, uh the ones that the ones that are out now, like they don't they don't make me look right like at all. Like they make me like a whole different skin tone. We don't even gotta go down. I can think that you can't.

SPEAKER_02 23:17

I had to make a whole post about it because I do a lot of gigs and these bars that you know they are all of a sudden graphic designers. And I get a flyer and they're like, oh, isn't it so cute? And I'm like, this is not cute, like this isn't even me. Right. Like, are you even looking the one who gave me like a slight mustache? But like I took like the logo off of my shirt that was on there, put three stickers on it with like I said, like lolli lobby. You know how AI just puts all these letters, and I'm like, this is embarrassing. Like, right, so you know that it there's only so much, and it's gonna advance, and we know that we know that AI is gonna advance, but right now, while it's in its baby steps, it's like, come on, people.

SPEAKER_00 23:53

Yeah, and it can't be integrated too much to the thing without having like people like actually check it. Like, I think the common thing that people see is like, hey, we each have seven fingers on each of our hands, like right, you know, it's still messing up, it's still not great, but I mean that's what I think that I worry about the most for people doing that is a lot of people in an effort to save money will try to do something very cheaply, and then having when things go wrong, coming back to me and me paying me double or triple what they would have paid me had I just been involved in the first place and done it right the first time. Like I think that's the thing, right? Like, you know, people are in such a rush to get to that next thing because they're fearful of losing that moment, which is which is a rightful fear, like it does move so quickly, but in that rush, in that expediency, there's something that they say, oh well, we can just clean this up later. And oftentimes you can't, or if you can, it's going to be worse for your bottom line than if you had just done it right in the first place, right? Like in your world, you could be like, eh, you know, I don't care. Like, I can fix this in post, but if it you're just taking like the extra 15 minutes to set it up, which you do, there are there are people I know that don't, um, to set it up right, like that's how you get the better recording. Like that's how you get the better song. And I think it's the same thing with lawyers. Like, if you take the time to really engage them like at the right time at the appropriate time, like if you're playing bar gigs again for like 20 bucks in a Paps Lou ribbon, you don't need me quite yet. But there are people that go from those $20 gigs to $100 or $400 or $500. Like here in our world, uh, they're not a client, and I can talk about it because it's public. There's a band called Jelly Roll that is like one of the most prolific bar and wedding bands like in the area.

SPEAKER_02 25:29

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:30

Who comes by this guy out of Tennessee, uh, who's also goes by Jelly Roll. But the thing is, Jelly Roll, that local band, understood that even they had like a name that they needed to protect, so they got a trademark before Jelly Roll and they used it before him. Now, I don't know the resolution of that case, but in that particular instance, that band certainly wasn't playing at the Grammys or the American Music Awards, but they understood the value of their intellectual property and took the proper steps to get it done. Now they have significant leverage in their dispute because they did take the time to get that legal stuff done. Had they not, then it's a whole he said, she said of, well, this is when we first started using it, this is how we used it, well, we only used it in Pennsylvania, New Jersey, and Delaware, whereas Jelly Roll, you have Nashville and started using it worldwide when you did your first or when you or nationwide when you started doing your first nationwide tour. And for them, I think, you know, if you had said, like, hey, do you want to pay the US PTO filing fees and a lawyer to get this trademark done? They're like, well, what we could use with that money is new gear, or maybe, you know, our van needs new tires or something like that. And we don't know because this isn't going to immediately start making us money. It's really going to be more of a protective measure if something does go wrong. And they did it and something went wrong, and now they have the ability to fight it and still protect their name and the time and investment that they spent building up the name Jelly Roll, which should be, in their minds, synonymous with this great wedding band experience, not uh, you know, a country singer and rapper. Um, and because they did that, you know, now they're better off for it. And I think that's one of the benefits that people can see. Like, again, I think people only want to come to me or other lawyers in general when, hey, we have a deal on the table and we need a contract negotiated, or hey, something has gone terribly wrong and we want you to fix it. Um, you know, continuing with the analogies I love so much. You can go to the doctor when you have a heart attack, but wouldn't you like to know what you could have done to prevent that heart attack by going to a doctor sooner?

SPEAKER_02 27:27

Yeah, preventive maintenance.

SPEAKER_00 27:29

Yeah. And that's, you know, lawyers do that work all the time, especially in the entertainment business.

SPEAKER_02 27:34

Yeah. Um speaking of recording contracts, what's like one of the uh biggest red flags you feel like that are in contracts?

SPEAKER_00 27:41

Uh the red flags and contracts without giving, you know, full-on no one recording contract is alike. I think every label, especially like the big three, like UMG's, looks different than Warner's, which looks different than Sony's. Um, but I think the word that should pop out to any artist if they see it in any contract anywhere is in perpetuity. Um, there are certain times, in perpetuity basically means till the end of time. Um so whenever you see that word in a recording contract and a publishing contract, you gotta understand, like, okay, not only am I giving up this right, but I'm giving it up forever. One thing I applaud the, you know, the more traditional labels for is that they've moved away from what we call the 360 deal, which is, you know, I the record label make 15% of 360 degrees of your pie. So you're recording, your touring, your merchandise here or wherever, and they're really moving into licensing deals. So eventually, if you have something that becomes a massive hit, you have something to pass down to your heirs or your kids. Um, and you're not giving it up to the label forever, but you are giving the label right to make money off it, usually it's like highest earning years, because there's only a certain select few of songs that can still be played today in 2026 that maybe got made in 1966. So I think that while you know My Way by Frank Sinatra is timeless, I'm not so sure that um you know Anti Ain't Playing by 1900 Rugrat and Skrilla will still be played in in 2086. Um and I hope it will because I love Skrilla and 1900 Rugrat. But I think that um when people are giving away rights and recording contracts, they either think that the deal says something that it doesn't, or they think that there's some magical loophole that if they like they can't get out of it. So I think people, especially artists in the recording contracts, need to understand what rights you're giving up, what royalties you're giving up, um, and then just avoid sort of the buzzword discussion of like, well, what about my master ownership? What about my publishing? Because they hear it on podcast clips and YouTube videos that those are the things to look out for and there are. But all right, well, what's your mechanical rate? You know, what is your uh what options do they have? What is the right of first refusal, which is kind of saying, hey, if another label wants to sign you, you got to come back to us first. And then we get, you know, the opportunity to say yes or no if we want to match it. And if we say no, then you go ahead and do that deal. Um, because that really sets your market artificially low because it's only whatever the next best offer is, and you can't continually raise it. Um, because once that first offer comes in under a right of first refusal, if the record label you're presently signed to wants to take it, they just take it and that's the end of your negotiation. Um, but I think the word in per tu in perpetuity should be looked out for, and then understanding if you're licensing your master's, how long is that term, what can you do, and then truly understanding what it means to recoup. Like I think a lot of people think that, oh, if I have a million sold, that means I'm recouped. Well, what is your recruitment rate? What expenses are going out for you? What can be put on your ledger, what can't be put on your ledger? If you're an act and you want to dress up like the teletuppies, does that come out of your recording budget? Does that come out of your marketing budget? And understanding that recruitment formula so you know exactly where you're at. There are things that artists should really look out for in their recording agreements.

SPEAKER_02 31:04

Okay. Yeah. Uh and what's what's the difference between ownership of their masters and ownership of their publishing?

SPEAKER_00 31:11

So if you think of a song like back in the day, if you for those of you that would go to church or go to the music lesson at the local music store, they would have songbooks, right? So songbooks were the way before recordings happened that people played music. So they had to figure out a way to pay both the people that made the book, the publisher, and the people that wrote the songs that are in the book, the songwriters. So that's where we get writing and publishing. Um, so it's the idea of the ownership of the written song, right? So if I'm um, you know, nine inch nails and I write the song Hurt, I get paid on both my nine-inch nails sound recording and on uh Johnny Cash's because it's the same written song. They're just making different sound recordings of it. Masters are your sound recordings. So you can have multiple versions of the same thing, but a sound recording will differently result each time. So that's why people think publishing is so valuable. Because if you see now, hip-hop is very, very reliant on sampling, EDM is very reliant on sampling. Um, and even in movies in sync, people will say, okay, well, it's easier for us to clear it from the songwriter side than it is the sound recording side, because those are two different rights holders. So you'll hear like covers of things. You know, one of my favorite TV shows is The Boys, and they have a Russian version of like Bad Reputation by Joan Jett, I think it is. So Joan Jett's sound recording isn't on there, but if Joan Jett is a songwriter, then she gets her publishing for that sound recording too. So that's why people think owning your publishing is more important than owning your masters, because you can do that too. And I think that's what the biggest thing that everybody talks about. Taylor Swift is she owned her writing and publishing, but didn't own the sound recordings. Now that works for Taylor Swift, who has such a massive fan base that she's able to really get people to direct them to the new sound recordings. But sometimes the masters can be just as valuable because you can't recapture 16-year-old Taylor Swift singing about heartbreak. It just doesn't sound the same as like billionaire Taylor Swift singing about that same heartbreak. Right. Like it's just you don't have that sort of performance left in you. So either or can be just as important. Sometimes you capture a take in the studio that's so undeniable that it can't ever be replicated, and when you try to, it comes off falling flat. Um, but owning that song and owning that song writer ship and getting that registered on your performing rights organization, whether that's BMI, Askap, or CSAC, if it is such an undeniable hit, you can make money over Fist because of it because now you have this song, you yourself are not incurring any new recording costs, and you're not incurring any new marketing costs yet. You're still eating off of it. And the other thing I think people don't understand is that you as an artist or you as a songwriter don't have to approve like any particular use. Like, you know, before I joined the practice, Lloyd worked with Grover Washington Jr. and DMX sampled a song of his on the thing called Slippin'. Um so one of DMX's biggest song, Slippin' was a Grover Washington Jr. sample and he approved it, but the only thing that could be played for a long time was the clean version, uh, because Grover had a a belief that, hey, songs should not have vulgar language in them, or if they do only an appropriate amount. So that was one of the stipulations he pulled in to clear it. You know, it doesn't matter how big a song is or how song successful it is, if a songwriter doesn't want to clear it, they don't have to clear it. Um, some people will refuse to clear for a variety of reasons. Um and I think that having that power and having that writing and having that publishing allows you to prevent your song from being commercialized in a way that you don't agree with. You know, there's a big uproar of songwriters and sound rights holders objecting to certain songs being used in political conventions on both sides of the aisle. Um, and also in film and TV, there are certain songs that may work for a show, but because of its subject matter, an artist doesn't want to approve it. So I think that's where it really comes in and the ownership of the writing and publishing and the difference in owning just the sound recording itself.

SPEAKER_02 35:04

Yeah, okay. Um, so how about engineers and producers? What are some things that they should be doing to legally protect themselves?

SPEAKER_00 35:11

First off, um I think they should have a contract with each one of their clients so they know what's what, who's getting paid, what rights they have and what rights they don't have. I think a lot of times people, again, because it is such a uh volatile business where you're never sure you could have the best month ever and not at great so much next month. You know, if you're an engineer, you could have a bunch of sessions booked in May, but then when June comes around and people are headed to the beach, really, you're not getting as many sessions. So figuring out, okay, contracts are important, um, LLCs are another thing that's important, um, limited liability companies. And uh the other thing is trademarks. I think every small business owner should have a trademark. If you're gonna build out your name, if you're gonna build out something where people say, Hey, if Dre Young, you know, is on my track, like I know it's gonna be great, and you don't want other people misappropriating it or saying that they worked with you and they really didn't, it's just another tool in your toolbox to really um well, like trademark your own name, you're saying? Yep.

SPEAKER_02 36:12

You do think I'm gonna have to, I think I'm gonna have to make some appointments with you. I guess I got a lot of stuff I need to get set up, and I've been needing a lawyer for a long time. So, but we'll talk about that later. Yeah. Okay. Um, so it's engineers and then producers. So I guess like, well, there's producers and then there's also beat makers. Yep.

SPEAKER_00 36:29

So is it contract still? Um, producers have a right to get certain publishing if they're acting as a songwriter on it. So your beatmakers, because they're writing instrumental, they get, you know, they get part of the songwriting and the public right? Okay, yeah. Because it, you know, I haven't yet heard someone that listens to all a cappella rap albums. You know, you need to have a beat in there. Um, so you get writing and publishing if you're a producer and you're actually contributing to the song itself. Um, and if you're just doing production work, you can still get a royalty on the master recording itself. If you are uh working with a major label, that percentage is much less than if you're doing with an independent artist. And I think that a lot of people don't always understand that. They think like, okay, well, I'm just acting as an engineer. Well, no, you're really not. You're actually doing like legitimate production work, and then there's producers who are really just engineers who just say, Hey bro, say that different. And like, yeah, that's not really production work. That's you just sort of giving tips as an engineer. So protecting yourself as a producer is just like those same things I mentioned LLCs, trademarks, producers that are beat makers have this interesting thing called a sound mark, right? We talk about a trademark, but sound marks are their like what we call beat tags. Um, but it identifies that they made the beat and it's another tool in their toolbox if people are misappropriating their beats. Um, and then I think a lot of things that you know you want to talk about the beatmaker producers, they are licensing out their beats rather than selling them wholesale, which is the way it used to be done. So a lot of times people will break their licenses either by using them in ways that were not approved, by exceeding the amount of streams, and then the people don't understand that, like, hey, just because it was, you know, this listed thing, like you knew this when you signed it, so either you have to deal with me or not, and then you'll see someone I call it the black backdrop Instagram story where they'll put like AOF whoever at your producer, they playing with my name because they took down my music because I didn't get paid. Because and what they're really saying is I didn't feel like paying this producer, they took my music down, and now I got a strike against me on YouTube, I got to strike against me on Spotify, and now I got to go back to that table. And now my lawyer as they're is mad at me because now we have no leverage. Like, that's what I deal with a lot of people who use loops without disclosing it, a lot of people that sample things without disclosing those samples, and then just throwing their hands up saying, like, well, I didn't know. Well, it's your job if you're gonna treat it as a business to know what you're getting into, right? Like I love my restaurant analogies, but it's like a cook saying, you know, I didn't know you could leave raw chicken out, you know, in room temperature for two hours. I thought that was okay. You know, like it's not like it touched anything, it didn't give me bacteria in there. And I was like, Well, it's your job to know that. And it's I think the producer's job to know, like, okay, like what can and can't I do under the you know, understanding with these songs. Um, if I'm making beats, like what I can and can't sample, if I'm getting loops, if I'm getting these other things, if I'm having my person using if I'm farming out drum beats to hear, if I'm getting a kit from there, if I'm getting a plug-in from there, what rights can and I can't do with this, and then how do I communicate what can and can't be done with this? And that's the question I get a lot is like, well, hey, Steven, this beat is hard as hell. I have the sample in it, what can I do? Can I just release it and then ask for forgiveness later? I'm like, yeah, but you know they don't have to forgive you, right? And like, well, what? Like if it makes like if it's a billboard hit, like they don't have to do anything. It's like, no, they can just say they can just say no. And and then you're really down the river, and now you're opening yourself up to a lawsuit. Um, but I think with any small business owner, like your bedrocks are your corporation. So that's either your LLC, your business, which is an INC, you know, I've seen people do limited liability partnerships for studios, which I don't think is the right way to go about it, but hey, to their each their own trademarks, which is basically the name that you're building out for yourself, copyright. So that could be anything from you know, you making your own design, making your own logo, making your own music, making your own lyrics, and then agreements with your clients. Just figuring out, like, okay, you're gonna hire me for these dates at this rate. And that's why there's no confusion when people say, you know, well, I don't know. I thought we were working together, like I thought you were helping out, like, yeah, I don't mind helping you out here, there, and there, but what we agreed to is this. And here's the piece of paper that says that. Like, contracts don't have tone, contracts don't have body language, contracts have words on paper. And at the end of the day, what those words on those paper are is what you agree to. And I think a lot of times, because it is treated as like a hobby that could be and turned into a profession, a lot of people don't approach it like that. Like, some people don't bring their car to a mechanic and say, like, hey, bro, like, let's just figure this out, and like, you know, like I'll get you at the end of it. Like, no, you get a quote, you figure out what's wrong, you figure out the man hours, and that's what good engineers and good producers do. They figure out, okay, you want me to record eight songs, you know, you have these type of things going on. We need to do A, B, and C. Here's how many hours in the studio need, here's how many we need here, here's what you need to pay me up front, here's what you need to pay me at the end when it's done. If we have to go over, here's this rate, and figuring out your own business in that way. Um, the other thing I think that what they need to legally do to protect themselves is if they are working out of another studio, if they are, you know, doing it from their home, properly assess like what you can and can't do. And that's you, I see a lot of people breaking studio rules and not even really knowing it, and then the studio gets held responsible and not themselves.

SPEAKER_02 42:00

Okay. Good, good. How do you feel social media and uh um like TikTok and all that has changed? Um uh I guess like laws had to change, right? Things had to change. Like, how do you think, well, how do you feel about all that? Yeah. What's happened?

SPEAKER_00 42:16

Because I think the big one that everybody thinks of is like, well, okay, when Instagram started allowing people to put music on their stories and on their post, well, what does that mean for a traditional sync licensing thing? Because a lot of small businesses, when they did that, they would put, you know, an advertisement and they would put music behind it on TikTok. And really, instead of paying that artist or that band or that rights holder, whatever was appropriate, they would just go around it and use it through this feature and they weren't getting paid. And then it takes the major labels to sue, and then the people that are the average person that want to put, you know, them and their friends dancing to whoever on TikTok get mad about it. But at the same time, like you got to pay the rights holders for this right. Like, I think that's the thing the technology has really done. Like, we have devalued art, you know, to such a point that nobody wants to pay for the art itself. Right. Like, I think it starts with lime wire and digital downloads, and then we just sort of that Pandora's box was open, so we had to be like, all right, I guess 99 cents is okay. And then we had a dollar 29, which were like better. And then Spotify comes out, says we're gonna do what Napster did, but we're gonna have a fee for it. And then from a business perspective, if you truly had to pay what you actually consumed on Spotify, like if you're listening to Spotify Thousands a day, that's not a 1099 subscription, that's like a hundred, hundred and fifty bucks. If you're truly we're gonna do it under the old model, like what radio used to pay. Um, so I think that's what's really kind of happened is like this devaluation of art, and then just to make it, you have to give up your art so much to get that like next thing to catch that next wave of the algorithm. You know, hey, I'm an artist, I'm gonna give away my music for free because I have to, because it has to. No value. Um and you can't value it at any point. So now you're thinking, okay, well, what revenue streams do I have left available? Then I have live I have live shows, I have merchandise, and I have maybe some like VIP meet and greets, but the actual art of it, that the way it's consumed, is now even more so because now we have like bite-sized sort of artwork. Like the average song length on the Billboard Hot 100 is probably like two minute 17 seconds right now. I I see a minute 30 songs coming out all the time. I see two minute songs coming out. You know, the way that songwriting has done is different. Like people have stopped doing intros that are longer than like 10 seconds because of the way that technology has worked. Like to be a account as a stream on Spotify, you need to get to seven seconds. Um, you know, all the TikTok people say, hey, you need to hook people in that first like 10 seconds, otherwise you're not gonna get it. So now that hook rather than that traditional intro gets put at the beginning of the song rather than at the middle or the end or wherever you want to place it, because you got a right to technology, not right to your art, I guess. Yeah. And there's certain points where you have Instagram and TikTok to where now you're trying to promote and do the same song over and over and over and keep pushing it. And then if you get a new fan, you're not able to get them driven to your other work. It's just like, hey, I want that 30-second hook. There's a phenomenon I'm seeing now in like live concerts where people are cool, people are chill, and then it gets to that 15-second hook that blew up on TikTok, phones go out. Yeah, that hook plays, rest of the song goes on, phone goes down, heads down, typing away, trying to get it out on their Instagram stories.

SPEAKER_03 45:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 45:43

So I I think that's the way that technology has really impacted it. And from like a legal perspective, yeah, we do see, you know, now we have less leverage, like because I'm more on the talent side, um, to where I can't go to some company and be like, all right, well, you need to use this work. Well, okay, Steven, there's a producer out in Romania that'll do something qu somewhat similar, but just different enough that you don't have a copyright claim anymore. And if you don't agree to this, we're just gonna replace your beat, and it's not gonna take us any time at all because we don't gotta go recall CDs, we don't gotta recall vinyl, we just gotta re-upload it on Spotify, and and nobody's gonna really be able to know the difference. So I think technology has while it's never been more accessible to get your stuff out there, and that's a great thing. There's a lot of people that are making it today that never would have made it in the old system because they didn't look a certain way or they didn't sound a certain way, that now it's much more democratized. At the same time, we're using music as a tool to get to the next thing, right? Like people want to make music so they can become social media influencers or influencers are using music to get back to their influencing thing. Like everyone from HUDA uh from uh that reality show to um actors and actresses and other influencers are using music as a way to drive people back to their true revenue generating platform, which is oftentimes social media.

SPEAKER_02 47:03

Yeah. And you know, that's a good point with the devaluing. Like um, I think another thing with technology and artists, it's it sometimes people shouldn't actually probably be putting their stuff out yet. It's like it's made people believe that they're better than they are in a way, you know. And that's also uh devalue, I guess, devaluing music because like you some people aren't studying their art and their craft anymore, like you were saying earlier uh in this podcast. Like the the time's not being spent to be perfect because they're like, oh, you know, with AI, you know, you got AI doing everything, and music is just getting lost in the process too. And but there's plenty of good artists, so it's not like a problem, but that's a good point that you know, then it's like there's no value, there's there's just no value to the person, and yeah, and I work on the business side of it all, so we can talk esoterically about what art says about society, what art says about our culture, what art says about our world that we live in today, but from a pure business perspective, you know, you're often required to drop music so often and so frequently to keep audience's attention.

SPEAKER_00 48:09

It's like not everybody's Frank Ocean. You can't just go ghost for six or seven years and then all of a sudden come out with a new album. Like you constantly have to be releasing, and that's a thing. I run into hip hop a lot, like where I'm talking with, you know, I go up to New York, I meet with Capo, and they're like, How often is your client gonna drop music? I was like, Well, he just put it out on EP like two weeks ago, so we'll probably hold off for like another three or four months. And he says, No, he needs to put out something like three weeks from now. And I'm like, Really? Well, that's another thing, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 48:35

Yeah, so and that and that's been going on for like forever because I remember like I grew up in the 90s, and you know, there was always like when the artists, like when Corn came out, like their first album, like it was killer. Like it was so good because and when I thought about it, you know, like they probably spent their whole life to that point making that one album. And then once you sign that deal, now you need to pump out all this music in X amount of time, and if you don't, you're screwed.

SPEAKER_00 48:57

You're gonna get dropped or you're gonna lose it.

SPEAKER_02 48:59

And you're gonna lose and you're gonna get all that money back no matter what. So it's like, you know, and then and then you would, yeah, and then bands a lot of times like I was talking about this the other day with my fiance. One band I think that did has done a great job with evolving was uh Red Hot Chili Peppers. Yes. Red Hot Chili Peppers had sound when I was younger, they were high energy, but they evolved through their crowd. A band like Corn ended up losing my interest, like three, four albums in. I think Follow the Leader was a third one, and that was their big one.

SPEAKER_00 49:26

Yeah, and then it just When you can hear the crack of your knees before the China Bell, before the mosh pit breakdown, that's where you're like, all right, yeah, like it'll be time for me to retire. I think like bands, the other thing going back to your technology question is like bands that don't evolve at the times will be left behind.

SPEAKER_02 49:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 49:40

I think like a lot of people now will be like, uh, hey Steven, I made this song that sounds like this, and I'm like, this would have crushed if it was 1983, but it's 2026. So yes, there is always a nostalgia that people play up, but you have to understand what world you're actually living in, right? Like, I make no bones about the fact that I'm like, hey, like if you want to work as an artist, like how do well, Steven, how do I get famous? How do I get popular? How do I get someone to offer the deal? It's like, what are you doing on TikTok? And they're like, what? I'm like, yeah. And they're like, well, we're a metal core band. Like, what are we gonna do? I was like, you gotta make 80 TikToks if you play in the same 15 seconds of your song, bring your drum set and your guitar around and play in front of front of a bunch of different things, do a million day in the life videos, get ready with me is whatever, because that's where your fan base is discovering music. Like, you can't tell people, no, it's wrong for you to discover me on this platform. You should go to here, you should go to band camp and and go through all the tags and all this, and that's how you should find me, or you know, you should have your radio on in your car 24-7 and only listen to college radio because that's how you should discover me. You got to go and understand where the reality of your where your fans are, and the reality is now is that they're on TikTok and it's no longer just a Gen Z thing. It's like I have a TikTok account, I'm on there, I'm watching TikTok videos, or I'm on Instagram reels, or I'm on YouTube reels, or you know, I'm watching Twitch streams, I'm in the chat. That's the other thing, too. Now is like, okay, the first person, like music focused live streaming has really blown up. What really started off is like video games. Now we're having Song Wars, which is where a bunch of people pick a song and then the chat decides which one wins. And you don't always want to make music a competition, but however you can get that new access is how you can do that. We have live streams where people are putting on their whole concerts for a live stream. Like we have a venue in Philly that's doing that, and it's not like a live nation-owned venue, it's a bar in the Gaborhood, you know, at 11th Walnut, uh, the Haze, and it's uh this production team, Little Big Planet, and they're live streaming all of their stuff to there. And some chats I check into and it's me and three other people. Other times it's me and a hundred other people, but those all add up. And if you're gonna be an artist in today's times, like you need to understand how technology works, where your potential fans are, where they're locating, because getting someone out of their house and off of their phone or their TV, which literally has every piece of content ever made at any time accessible to them, and getting them out to a show, getting them to pay $12 for a drink, is one of the hardest things to do now. Yeah. And there's so few independent spaces that can make enough money doing that to where they are gonna be.

SPEAKER_02 52:16

Drinking is going down, right? That's like a thing.

SPEAKER_00 52:19

Yeah, drinking is going down, which is a good thing.

SPEAKER_02 52:22

But for these business models and these independent venues, I mean they really depend on. So now it's like, all right, we got to come up with something new has to come up if if the bar sales, I mean they guys are making mock tails or something, I guess, right?

SPEAKER_00 52:34

Mocktails or bringing a new experience or bringing together a community of sober people that allow them to do that. Like if you're gonna be a venue, yeah, you can still get by somewhat on ticket sales, but the fact of the matter is is most bands can't make enough ticket sales to keep a venue, an independent venue afloat. Like it's so annoying. Yeah, you can take that. It's also annoying because I want it all to work. Right, right.

SPEAKER_02 52:55

And the other thing I would say is like some of the community of the people that aren't musicians and artists that like if we had that support, but they don't know.

SPEAKER_00 53:02

They don't the other thing is like a lot of people that are in bands I know won't go to shows unless it's their own. Yeah. Like if you're trying to be part of like a scene, you should go to the Tuesday night show with like five bands that you don't know that's out at the nail and hardmore, or you know, name your favorite independent venue. Because if you're not gonna go support, how can you expect anybody else to support you?

SPEAKER_03 53:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 53:25

Like the thing I saw while playing, and I still see today, you know, I still play in bands, but I'm not exactly out in it, out in it like I used to be. It's the same five people show up and they leave right after their friends play and they don't see the other bands and their 10 friends stay and they leave and they do that, they're like, Well, why do we do this? To go, we could have just done this in our rehearsal space if we wanted like what our you know, what we sounded like live.

SPEAKER_03 53:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 53:50

Um, but that's the thing. I think that if you're gonna do it like a DIE, do it everyone approach, um, everyone needs to support everybody, and you do need to say, hey, I'm not gonna go to this, I'm gonna go see this show. If like that's truly only how a scene grows, like if you look at the different eras, band supporting bands, artists supporting artists, and doing those things, not that you're expecting to get an immediate return back, like, hey, I'm gonna go to the show, and now this next person is gonna book me on their next show. But you just do it to go support, yeah. And I think you know, the same approach is for people that want to get into what I do, like entertainment law. Like, you need to have the basic skills of like understanding the law, but a lot of it it does come down to networking, understanding, and talking to different people. Like in my world, I talk to everybody from the sound guy who has a beard that he hasn't brushed in like eight years, uh, to you know, an executive in a suit that's talking to me about, you know, ad spend and CRM and all that type of good stuff. So the skill that I developed at was going to shows. Like I would go to see the Grateful Dead tribute band and you know, some local suburban bar to hey, I'm going to see this noise band that's coming in from Japan that has a folding table, a snare drum, a microphone, and rubs it against their face and makes like funny noises with it. Yeah. And I'll go and I'll support that because I'm like, okay, this is one of the few spaces left for people to express themselves without necessarily expecting a significant profit. So I have to support that if I want to continue seeing that. Like I kind of have to put my money where my mouth is. And that's a hard thing because there is so much, so much less money to put where your mouth is. Like rents are increasing, studio space is increasing, gear, especially quality gear is increasing, the cheap gear is abundant, but yeah, um, the quality stuff is getting more and more expensive as they're looking to differentiate themselves. So I think that to really grow in anything, you need to support other people trying to do the thing you're trying to do, because that's how you create a community.

SPEAKER_02 55:59

Yeah, yeah. That's what it comes down to is community unless you're rich. Which I mean, they have their own community, but yes, it comes down to that. Um back into I guess the creation part, like split sheets. What is a split sheet and do you feel like why are they important?

SPEAKER_00 56:18

Split sheets are evidencing what you agree to in terms of writing and publishing, and why they're important is that so there's no dispute or argument later. Like you figure out who did what, what the percentage of is this something you do when the song is done? You can do it when the song is done, you can do it beforehand. You know, some people, and it's different, like different scenes do it different ways. Yeah. In different genres, especially like in rap, it's pretty much 50% to whoever's doing the lyrics, and then the other 50% is the people for who are doing the instrumentals. So if you're having two rappers and three pe and four people that made the beat, you know, you're splitting it 25 to rapper one, 25 to rapper two, and then the other 50% is like 22 point something, uh, because 50 divided by four. Um or I'll just even make it five, you know, and then they get the other 10%. And you put that on a split sheet, and a lot of times it should be done when the song is done, but oftentimes it's not um because you don't know what's gonna make the album. So a lot of people don't want to go through that space and figure that out. But a lot of times um not having that done later allows people to have revisionist history or like what they did and what they did. They're like, no, I said that, and I told you to do this, or I told you to put this E flat instead of this F sharp here, which I think are the same. No, I'm a drummer, I don't know music. Um you know a little bit. No, I know a little bit, but yeah, split sheets are at the very most basic terms, listing out what songs you did, who the people are that contributed to those songs, what they did on those songs, and evidence saying, hey, we did those things, we all agreed that we did those things. So when it does come out, these this is what we agreed to. And it's better to get it done up front rather than when it's there, because then you're lying in bed with your significant other and they say, Hey, this song wouldn't be a hit without you. And it's really a hit because you told them to say this instead of that, or you put this different line in, or you took this top line, and instead of putting it on a lead guitar, you put it on a xylophone or something crazy. So not having that done later is when people start to get in disputes because everybody's cool until the money shows up, and then when the money shows up, that's when people start.

SPEAKER_02 58:27

Things will get on hold and everything. And and speaking of that, like, have you ever seen any friendships or business relationships like fall apart because of this situation?

SPEAKER_00 58:35

Yeah. So we had a client who came in and it was him, it was a husband and wife. The wife was doing very well. An investor wanted to, you know, make her money, and the guy comes in and we go, Okay, you know, we've known you the guy for longer. We don't know your wife as well. We really think you should put uh a management contract on her because you're doing a lot of the management work. And to now you don't have any agreement. And they go, Well, I'm married to her. Uh we have made an agreement before God. And I was like, Okay, cool. Still think you need the management contract. The management contract lasted 18 months, the marriage lasted four. So I've seen marriages ruined, I've seen friendships ruined, I've seen, you know, brothers and sisters' relationships ruined. Um, just because of the fact that it is so personal and it's like a personal expression of a way to make money. Like, and it is people's dream to be successful at creating art, whatever way they do it. And so you are a lot more personally attached to it than if it was just a normal business venture. And then also it's just a lot more fun making money this way than any other way, right? Like we could be day trading or we could be mining crypto or whatever. Yeah, but it's much more fun to have people pay you for bearing your soul in a lot of instances. So yeah, I I've seen a lot of personal relationships ruined, and I've seen a lot of personal relationships get saved because you separate the business from the personal relationship. You say, like, all right, like, you know, we have this lawyer, I have my lawyer, you have your lawyer, they'll handle it back, they'll come back to us and they'll hash out the deal. And, you know, I know what's going on, but to them, I handle the the lawyers handle a lot of the you know smaller details and it and it works out fine.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:18

And I've seen a lot of you know, people forget who they kind of came up with, right? Like, I still am out and about, and somebody will come up to me and go, yo, we met at you know, the golden tea house, uh, or we met at uh Lavender Town, or we met at the Trocadero upstage theater. You were part of like an all-day festival, and you had to sell yourself like a hundred tickets and you had to eat the cost when you can only sell 55 of them. Um, so I think like a lot of people will still remember me from those days, and I never ignore them, right? Like I'm here now, I get to look at this every day, but I never forget where I came from. And you know, getting put at that desk like near the toilets was like Lloyd, my boss's kind of way of always reminding me of saying, Hey, you came from a certain place just because you have some moderate success doesn't mean you should forget where you came from. And that's what I tell my clients too, right? Like, hey, congratulations, you know, you've just made all this money for your art. Don't forget where you came from. Now you can't always keep that same relationship in that way it was, but don't lose those relationships because you're starting to make it now. Um, and you try as best you can, and there's other times where those relationships just absolutely fall apart. Uh, you know, plenty of times somebody's like, hey, my friend's gonna manage me. And then they call me six months later and they're like, I need to get another management contract. I was like, Why? And they go, Oh, well, they're not doing this or not doing that. I was like, Oh, so when you started to treat it, you know, you thought a friend could be a business partner. And like, yeah, and sometimes it works out, but a lot of time it doesn't. Like you gotta be able to compartmentalize and separate the friendship from the business relationship, and you need to have people on your team that are able to keep it real with you.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:59

Um, but you know, maintaining those relationships and understanding like who you are will be the best thing you can do in terms of protecting those when the money does come in. But yeah, I see it happen all the time. People I've seen people fight over a thousand dollars.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:12

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:13

You know, and I'm like, all right, that's very cool. That's you know, a week of door dashing shifts if you really want to do that. Like, I'll get you set up on the app tomorrow, no problem.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:22

Right, right. Oh my god. Um, so I know you have an appointment coming up, and I'm gonna have to roll out of here. Is there, is there any there's so much we could talk about, obviously.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:32

I could say I could sit here for hours. First of all, yeah, I'm just really happy to be here. Um, I think what you're doing is great. I think that podcasting is a great way to impart knowledge. Like I remember when I was trying to get into being an entertainment lawyer, like I would read all these books and I would go to all these people and I would read all these articles, but really being able to talk in a format like this, and I appreciate you making all the way up here to to where we're at.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:57

Yeah, of course. Thank you for having me. It's a great, great little uh scenery we got here.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:03

Yeah, I'm I apologize, I interrupted. No, you're fine, you're fine.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:07

Um, I've gotten a lot better at not interrupting people since I started this podcast. Yeah, because I do have like major ADD, so like, you know, um, but you're good. But what I was gonna I was just gonna say, is there any like there's a million things we can cover. Is there anything that you would like to say that you haven't said that to to you know close it up or whatever?

SPEAKER_00 1:03:27

I think in the entertainment business you need to have an appetite for rejection, and I think that's what's really, really hard because we live in a world to where you do not see the rejection, and when you do see it, it's a cry for sympathy, yeah, or a cry for empathy, not so much like an earnest, like, hey, like this is what it's like. But I just in my life and in my world, I experienced so much rejection to get where I am. Venues wouldn't book us. I remember literally handing a bouncer my demo and I was like, Can you give this to the manager? And he was like, Yeah, and then he walked back and he didn't think I could see him, but the door swung open and I saw him literally just toss it, not drop it, toss it in the trash can, and then somebody else spilled their Bud Light all over it. And uh, you know, in entertainment law, been rejected for many and many an internship, many a job, many a hey, you're just not a right fit for us at this time. And I think that for anybody trying to make it, whether it's like an entertainment support professional or entertainment law entertainer, like being able to take that rejection, eat it, learn from it, get the nutrients from it, and then go on to that next thing is going to be the thing that sets you apart. I think now we see it so few and so infrequently because social media is designed to really celebrate only our successes. Like nobody's putting out their worst moment on social media, really, unless they're not gonna be able to do that.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:55

Yeah, and they even everybody like a dislike button on YouTube, right? Didn't they get rid of that button?

SPEAKER_00 1:04:59

They didn't get rid of that button.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:00

That was a great button, though.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:01

I like that button. I I am not a generational hater, but I'm certainly one of the top haters of my generation. I definitely like anybody cats that I dislike. I'm not listening to this. This is way too popular for me right now, but I'm getting better at it. Um, but an appetite for rejection, I think, is one of the most important things, other than like working on your craft, whatever that may be, like being understanding, and it's easy to say, but until you actually experience it, it's just gonna hit you different. Yeah. Like, and people are like, Well, I'm struggling here, I'm struggling this, like, how long do I have to wait? And honestly, you don't know that answer that. Like, Lloyd, my boss, has come up with this formula and it says, like, it takes three things to make a superstar talent, luck, and contacts. The more talent you have, the less luck you need. The more contacts you have, the less talent you need. And just whatever you need to get to that number of success is how it happens. Sometimes people have very little talent, very little contacts, but are the luckiest person in the world and they make it. You know, there's rappers. That have gotten signed major deals because little Uzi Virt shouted them out, you know, on a stream or showed up to their music video. There's other people who, you know, hey, this AR's car broke down by this bar and they were getting a drink and they just happened to be playing. Um, but that's the thing too, is like at any moment you never know who's watching. Yeah. And so I think like as you're going through this, always treat whatever you're doing, like the basic executive, your favorite artist, your whoever may be in the crowd, because you never quite know. Like anecdotally, Justin Bieber was discovered off YouTube. You know, your favorite, I don't know how Korn got discovered, but I assume it's off, you know, seeing some bar in LA, like the True Bo or something like that.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:38

Yeah, it's way back.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:39

So just the other thing I would say is like, live every day like you know, your favorite idol is like watching you. Yeah. Because that'll be the way that you motivate yourself. I think sometimes people will say, like, oh, well, this doesn't really matter. I'm not gonna put that much effort into it. And certainly I was guilty of that, especially in school. I was like, all right, well, I'm not gonna be a constitutional lawyer, like, why am I studying this? Well, it's because I want to, you know, do good in school and you never know what may happen. And sometimes the free speech stuff does come into my world as an entertainment lawyer, but I decided to work hard at it and understood, like, okay, well, if my the lawyers that I looked up to, um you know, I used to read like the Hollywood Reporter and Billboard's like power lawyer issue like every year, and you know, I'm thankful that I've worked for a few of those people. Um, and just being able to do that and trying to grow and trying to be the best I could be every day is important. And then lastly, I think it's like take as many shots as you can. You know, like I think a lot of times somebody to your thing where some people are putting things out that have no business or putting out, there are some people who are just so fearful of criticism or rejection or wherever that they never put the thing out there, and then at that point you're never gonna know. Like it's just a dead point. And so don't be afraid to put things out there. Like everybody's first song is gonna be god-awful. Yeah, like that's just because you don't have the experience yet. You know, you gotta take a couple hacks at the tree before you knock it down. And you know, certainly when I first got started as an entertainment lawyer, I remember um first thing I got was uh a merger agreement where one guy was retiring from like a wedding band agency and the other guy was taking over the business. And I remember writing what I thought was like a really, really good contract, and I'm a cocky law student. And uh Lloyd takes it, looks at it, he's like, I'll back to you. I said, Okay. So I go sit on my little toilet desk, I'm doing other work, and uh he calls me back in, he goes, Steven, and he puts it up to this and he's holding it like I think he's gonna give me a compliment. He also throws it in the trash. I've had a lot of things thrown in the trash in my life, a lot of my hard work and effort. Uh and he's like, This isn't good enough, start over. And I said, Oh, okay, great. And it's because he demanded excellence, he demanded a certain standard that he helped me to and he still holds me to to this day that do that too. And if you don't have someone else in your life holding you that standard, yeah, set a standard for yourself and make it reasonable and rational. And you know, he didn't want me to be, you know, the number one lawyer ever when I was just a law student. He understood I had room to grow, but he's like, this is not the standard I should hold you to based upon your years doing this, your background, your wherever. So have an appetite for rejection. Don't be afraid to put yourself out there. Don't be afraid to build a community. And when you fail, learn from it, grow from it, and keep raising the standard for yourself each and every day.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:28

Great. That's great advice. Um all right. So I'm gonna ask the last question. If you have an answer for it, you know the last question. So, how is music your hero?

SPEAKER_00 1:09:38

Music is my hero because it did what a hero is supposed to do. A hero is supposed to save, a hero supposed to protect, a hero supposed to give you something to look up to. And I think, you know, music in my darkest moments of struggling and failure and eating so much rejection, you know, I had to take X Flex. Uh because of that, I listened to the songs. The my heroes of, you know, I think I I play drums, that's how I got into it. So the Neil Pearce, the Travis Barkers, the Stuart Copelands, the, you know, other people that are like, hey, I was in nine different bands before I landed in this one, or hey, you know, this just was my first band that we just still stuck together and made it work. Um, just doing that. And then I think a lot of the, you know, looking at how music can kind of uh uh protect us, like it protected me from tough moments. Like, you know, I listened to songs where I was like, okay, this this isn't this thing in my life isn't going that great, but it's protecting me from this outside world, this outside pain. And I think a hero is one that you should look up to. And I did find some musicians and I said, Okay, I like this about you, I don't like this about you. Here's I want to be like you in this way, but I don't want to be a direct clone of you. I think that's the other thing too, is like when you look at people and you look at heroes you want to look up to, nobody's ever truly perfect. So take a combo of things you like, don't do the things you don't like about them, and figure out how to be more like your hero. And music for me has protected me, saved me, and that's really why I think it's the hero that everybody needs. And whether it's music, whether it's movies, whether it's film, like yeah, art or entertainment.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:16

Art or entertainment. It all falls. Yeah, art.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:18

Yeah, I would say entertainment. Like, like I watched that uh UFC fight between some commentator and Johnny Manzel. I was like, this is entertaining, but this ain't art. Um, and uh I just really think that what you're doing in a in a compliment to you is like pulling out like, hey, like music can be this life-changing thing that a lot of people think it's just for car rides, weightlifting sessions, and maybe some concert where you can go get an overpriced Miller light. Um, it's so much more than that, and I think we're starting to lose sight of that in an over-commercialized sort of era where everybody's trying to figure out how to make art and then turn it over to make it profitable.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:02

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Good answer. I like that. I like that. Well, it's been great talking to you. Um, you're such an important piece of this puzzle, uh, especially, you know, there's the majors and there's the indies. So I'm super excited for you know, like you're saying, D I. I I love that. There, there's so much of that in Philly, and I think that none of them have much education when it comes to what you're doing. So hopefully, in time, you know what I mean? Everybody, we can get Philly up to par and working on it. Yeah, we're working on it, and you know, drowning fish, everything. So thank you for taking the time and um and that's it.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:40

Great. Thanks. Like and subscribe.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:42

There you go. I love that.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:47

Keep committing, keep connecting, and keep building together. We're in this together. So let's keep each other coming alive.